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Brake Efficiency Figures 7.5 / 7.9 / 8.4 Etc


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#16 Cooperman

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 12:49 PM

With disc brakes, especially, there can be as many problems with the brakes running too cold as there are with them being too hot.

There are a lot of myths about the benefits of big and/or vented discs, but brake pads only work between certain temperatures. On a road car vented discs can and often do cause the brakes to run much too cool. The solution is to fit softer pads with a better low temp coeff. of friction. The problem then is that they don't work so well at higher temperatures and can easily fade, despite being vented.

Always choose the brakes for your application.

Some may recall the days of the old Ferodo DS11 pads, which were the normal race and rally pad, that to pass an MoT one had to really warm the brakes up on the way to the test centre, then get the tester to do the brake test whilst they were still hot. With more modern pads, like the Carbon-Metallic ones, they work for relatively cool, but vented discs are not really needed on a light car like a Mini and any of the set-ups from 7.5" upwards, non-vented, work extremely well with good pads.

It's not good for a light car to be 'over-braked' as they then don't get warm enough to work as they should.



#17 tiger99

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:33 PM

All good stuff. There is another thing to consider. For maximum efficiency, and stability, the fronts must lock up just very slightly before the rears, so the front to rear balance must be considered. We know that you don't "need" discs at the rear of a Mini, indeed the drums need a limiter valve or very narrow bore wheel cylinders. However, by using very small discs, and calipers with small diameter pistions at the rear, you could create a situation where the front and rear brake temperatures remained approximately equal, so the balance did not shift about as the fronts alone became hot, and the overall brake efficiency and maximum achievable deceleration would be optimised. Probably not practical right now, as lots of development work would be needed.

 

But if the problem is that the fronts are not able to lock, there is a fundamental, but simple, problem. You either need more hydraulic pressure (stronger right leg?), larger effective disc diamater, or larger diameter caliper pistons. Now a larger effective disc diameter may be possible with a multi-piston caliper and long, narrow pads so the contact area is as far as possible towards the outside edge of the disc. If the total piston area is the same as the originals, the master cylinder will still be able to displace sufficient fluid volume and will not need to be changed. But surely it is easier just increasing the disc diameter?

 

As it happens, I prefer 10" wheels, and those limit your choice severely!

 

Larger diameter caliper pistons are of no help, because to meet the safety requirement that there is always sufficient pedal travel to apply the remaining brakes fully if one circuit fails, the master cylinder diameter has to be increased, so you are back to the same hydraulic ratio.

 

As has been stated here many times by others, a servo does not improve braking efficiency, which is purely a function of friction surface geometry, thermal properties and applied pressure. However, if the problem is simply that the maximum pedal pressure that you can apply is not generating sufficient hydraulic pressure to lock the wheels, a servo will help, provided it is large enough to apply sufficient force itself. Many are not, and run out of vacuum differential pressure under very hard braking. A longer pedal, i.e. larger lever ratio, would achieve the same thing, if it was physically possible and you could accept longer pedal travel, remembering that full master cylinder piston travel must still be achieved.

 

Which brings us to the possibility of a quick test. Make a bolt-on pedal extension (doesn't matter if it is unsuitable for serious road use at this stage) and try using it to apply more pressure on the brake roller test.

 

Realistically, the only short-term way forward, using standard Mini parts, is larger discs, which with the same pad material and caliper piston diameter will give you more braking torque, as I think has been said above. The pad area has little to do with it, as the friction is ideally proportional to pressure alone, and independent of speed or area. But the pad area is very important for heat dissipation and wear, so bigger is generally better, within sensible limits.

 

Long term, there is still scope for improving Mini braking in various ways, including solving the front/rear balance problem by using ABS, but that needs vast development resources. You can't design such a system at home, or just throw in something ripped out of a modern car.



#18 mini13

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:41 PM

somthing i wrote a few years back but is applicable here....

 

 

"First off this is ignoring things like pad mu, the effective radius of braking due to the distance from the centre to the inside and outside of the pad (from the clutch discussions) and just looking at the pressure given by the calliper for a given pedal pressure, ie total piston area...ie pressure exerted on the pad/disc interface.

and in order of total piston area...


ok first off the 997/998 cooper caliper used on 7" Discs, the piston diameter is 41.1mm for the 2 pistons this give a piston area of 2350mm.

next is the S caliper with pistons of 44mm, this gives a total piston area of 4250mm

next which suprised me is the KAD 6 pot calliper, with its pistons of 25,28 and 30mm diameter it gives a piston area of 3630mm

what next?

the metro 4 pot, 4 pistons of 35.9 giving an area of 4050mm

and finally top of the heap!!

the humble 8.4" 2 pot caliper with its 2" pistons giving an area of 4250mm."



#19 tiger99

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 02:11 PM

Those are good figures to have available! I may need them myself one day.

 

It seems that the master cylinder for 8.4" 2 pots will meet the safety criterion for all the others, as it will have sufficient fluid displacement, assuming the pads all creep back the same distance when the brakes are released. The relative brake torques can also be estimated, which confirms my long-held suspicion that the most expensive product in your list is the least useful.

 

There is one other which could be worth adding, if someone has the information, Fiesta discs and calipers. Believe it or not, these still seem to be readily available, new, from major spares suppliers. I think (don't know much about Fiestas as yet) that these are single piston sliding calipers, but that has no effect on fluid displacement required, as there is still the running clearance on both sides of the disc to consider. The one piston moves twice as far, and the caliper slides half of that distance.

 

There may be other options too. Someone should collect up all these facts and figures in a safe place.



#20 GraemeC

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 03:34 PM

next is the S caliper with pistons of 44mm, this gives a total piston area of 4250mm

 

 

I'm guessing this is a typo and should be 3250mm?



#21 GraemeC

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 03:35 PM

Some real interesting stuff in here.
 
I think it may be a little unfair on the KAD though, as that is relying on the increased effective radius that you've ruled out.  If you factor that back in, the results will look entirely different.

Edited by GraemeC, 11 December 2015 - 03:37 PM.


#22 mini13

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 03:55 PM

well spotted, although I now make it 3040 sqmm  for the S pistons.

 

true on the effective radius, but remember that you have to take in account the disc size with the Kads as they are radial mount so could be anything, I would guess the increase in mechanical advantage from going from 2 pots to 6 pots would unly be 10-15% i'd be supprised if the Kads made up for the difference in piston area, that said you can change the master cyl to get the hydraulic advantage you want...

 

to be honest i think the biggest change is available from pad material. personally I hate brakes that need to warm up and IMO have no place on the road.

 

for the record I'm currently running 44mm piston 4 pot willwoods on 10 1/4" discs wiuth their std road material, suprisingly this is fine with a std S master and drums on the back ( i was expecting the pedal to be too long and need a bigger master cyl bore)



#23 nicklouse

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 05:14 PM

Ok you are now going into hydraulics you mention the calipers piston area(s) but that by its self means nothing. You need the MC piston size as well . And how the different ratios effect things.

And then the KAD calipers and how they work. You can not look at the total surface area as that is not how they work.

But then we jphave now also brought in pads of different surface areas. Which without changing the piston size changes the force you can apply.

When wanting to compare braking forces you MUST keep some input/output force the same so you can then see what changes.

I am sure there are some great sites out there with the info but I am going out so anything sensible is not coming from me.

#24 gazza82

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 05:33 PM

Not on Friday Nick  :lol:  My brain cell will burst ...  O_O



#25 tiger99

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 04:16 AM

You can't just change the master cylinder to change the hydraulic ratio. A smaller bore gives you more pressure, so seemingly better braking. But you are always right up against the safety criterion that if one hydraulic circuit fails, the other will still work within the available pedal travel, taking into account pad knockback due to normal wheel bearing tolerances, and a reasonable amount of mis-adjustment of the rear drums. There is little or no margin to play with, and fitting a smaller bore master cylinder is very likely to make the car unsafe and illegal.

 

If you do such a modification, you really do need to do a proper test. Plumb in two T pieces, one in each brake line. Plug the spare port of each T piece with an ABV bleed nipple, if you can find some old stock, or one of those more complex and inferior American ones you can get now. http://www.demon-twe...CFU-6GwodoQcNJQ

 

Bleed the system. Now "fail" one circuit by fitting a plastic tube from one of the nipples, leading back into the reservoir. (You need a spare, modified reservoir cap with a hole drilled in it and a tube fitted through, to ensure that dirt is kept out of the system.)  Test the brakes, NOT on the public highway. Close up that nipple and repeat with the other. You need to have adequate pedal travel remaining in both cases to be safe.

 

Actually, if you have mounted these T pieces properly, they can remain fitted to the car as an aid to bleeding if the system is ever drained. They would probably do most good at the highest points in the pipe runs near the master cylinder, because that is most likely where air is trapped in cars that are difficult to bleed.



#26 mini13

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 12:26 PM

yeah, thats all fine and well, if you have more than one circuit.



#27 tiger99

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 04:47 PM

It is still true with one circuit, because the master cylinder must not run out of travel in the worst case combination of pad knockback, maladjustment of rear drums, expansion of drums due to heat, imperfect bleeding, etc. If the displaced volume at the calipers is increased, the displacement of the master cylinder must be increased,. and there can be no improvement in hydraulic pressure ratio. That only comes by having longer pedal travel or a servo.



#28 nicklouse

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 05:20 PM

and there can be no improvement in hydraulic pressure ratio.


Now what exactly do you mean by that?

#29 Spider

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 05:23 AM

what next?

 

 

I recall Tar-ox also did some 8 Spots for the Mini too, sorry, I have no data.



#30 Dusky

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 06:39 AM

I Havent done any research in this matter, but I wonder how we can keep improving our brakes when a 8.4 set could lock up 13 inch slicks :)




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