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Clutch Slave Cylinder Parts Swap


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#1 mmmorris

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 12:19 PM

Hi All

 

I have a 1990 Mini Mayfair with and a previous owner put an 1987-89 MG Metro 1275 in it. It stil an A series engine but I'm not sure how much different these are in comparison with proper Mini engines.

 

A few weeks ago I started hearing a whining noise from the clutch when ever I changed down a gear in high revs e.g changing from 4th to 3rd doing 35mph. but it was only as I was bringing the pedal back up.

I took it to my local garage and the told me it was probably a big nut behind the flywheel, about 33mm or there abouts, that might be loose. So I began to take apart everything to get into the clutch. I got the clutch case off and inside it looked absolutely brand new! I then got some new from my neighbor after he'd spoken to the garage about my problem, which was that the possible problem didn't need me to gain access to the clutch but just adjust the stop nut on the clutch arm and then if that didn't work then I should inspect the clutch!

 

So after being told this I ordered a new stop nut (which my car didn't have at all as I realised) and a new clutch slave cylinder. Now this is where my troubles are at the moment. The old one had been on the car since the beginning and I got a new from ebay. I messeged  the seller asking him if it would work on my car as it was for a 1881-82 Alegro and he said it would. So I ordered it and when I tried to fit it I found out that the banjo bolt that connects the rubber hose from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder was to small for the bolt hole in the new slave cylinder!

 

So my questions are! What are the other possible reasons for the clutch whine, how do I adjust the stop nut correctly and can I swap over the internal part (spring, seals etc) from the new slave cylinder into the new one as it should be the same bore?

 

Also if anyone has anything else to point out that will be important then please do! Thanks!



#2 tiger99

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 01:59 AM

We may need some more information about the whine to be able to take the diagnosis any further. Try telling us as much as you can about it. Is it high or low pitched? Just a whine, or any grinding sounds, or a noise like spinning ball bearings? Any rumble or knock? Does it happen when you bring the pedal up slowly, or quickly? Only on downward changes? Are you sure it is from the clutch area? You will understand that it is extremely difficult to guess the source of a noise from a long distance away. There will be lots of people along with various suggestions (most Mini owners have experience of clutch problems!), so first I thought we should eliminate what it is not, if that makes any sense.

 

Firstly, the hydraulics almost certainly have nothing to do with the whine. But don't mess about with slave cylinders of dubious origin. As they say, "buy cheap, buy twice". Just get the proper one from any Mini supplier, but only if it is leaking, or, less commonly, siezed. As you have not indicated that it has either of these problems, it should not need replacement. But don't ever swap new hydraulic parts into old cylinders. Much of the time the problem is bore wear and corrosion, and that will just chew up the new seal in a week or two. And the Allegro one may have a Metric bore diameter so the piston and seal will not fit the Mini body. (Not certain about that one way or the other).

 

You should always be referring to the Haynes manual (or the Rover manual), which gives the procedure for setting the stop nut, but basically you slacken off the locknut, wind the stop nut outwards a bit, get someone to hold the clutch pedal hard down to the floor, wind the stop nut up against the casing, then two more flats (120 degrees), and tighten the locknut. I am rather hoping that the problem is then cured, because if not, we have to start guessing, to a certain extent.

 

Your whine could be many other things, but I seriously doubt that it is the clutch. However, if you want to change something in the clutch, make it the thrust bearing, not the friction plate, pressure plate or flywheel. The fact is that the thrust bearing is the only part of the clutch that is likely to whine, and the only possibly whining part that is anywhere near easy to change. You already know how to take the clutch cover off, job almost done, as it is only fitted to the inside end of the central plunger. Beyond that, the problem would be drop gears (but they more commonly rattle, and whine at high speed) or gearbox.

 

By the way, the nuts are not 33mm, or any other metric size. I can't remember what they are, nowhere near 33mm, but it is an imperial size, like almost everything on a Mini, so you need a set of imperial A/F spanners, or you are sure to run into serious problems with damaged nuts or bolt heads sooner or later. In very few cases is the nearest metric size close enough to avoid damage. The Allegro was a metric car, which is why the banjo doesn't fit. The flywheel bolt is 1 1/2" A/F, which is 38.1mm.

 

I had a whine on changing down on a 998 some time back. It was there occasionally from new in 1984, and was due to the gearbox output shaft bearing, item 21 in the link below,  having been sabotaged during manufacture. There was a neat angle grinder cut through the outer race, and that could not have happened by accident. It went quiet for a long while but eventually the sound returned and it locked up completely as I accelerated away from traffic lights. When it happened, only rarely, it sounded like a spinning dry ball bearing. Downright dangerous, because it allowed the final drive gears to wedge together (they were ruined), which is what locked the front wheels solid, but only under power. Quite rare for it to happen due to normal wear, I have never heard of it happening.

 

http://www.somerford...age=page&id=149

 

I hope that your problem is not that particular bearing failing because it is a lot of work to change it. However, I think that it is more likely at the other end. As I said, thrust bearing is the easiest, but if not, It may be worth having the transfer case off, and checking the drop gears and their bearings if nothing else is found. I generally remove the transfer case without lifting the engine, because it is quicker. No need to disconnect driveshafts, for example. But you do need to drain the oil. And, there is the sometimes difficult flywheel removal, which is needed whether the powerplant is still in the car or on the bench,

 

It is also remotely possible that the whine is due to failure of the primary gear bushes where it runs on the crankshaft. There is only relative rotation when the clutch is disengaged, it is all llocked up solid normally, and can't make a noise when the pedal is fully up. I would not describe that as a whine however, more like a grating noise, sometimes a squeal. Flywheel has to come off to check those properly. Red seal too, and the gear can be pulled out. But I don't think it will be those.

 

We are all here to help. You have given us quite a lot to go on, but any more that you can tell us will be useful.



#3 nicklouse

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 02:06 AM

Sounds like the clutch release bearing.

Sound like you have had a poor A+ to A series conversion if they have not fitted all the clutch parts.

The verto and Pre verto slave cylinders use the same thread so it sounds like you have bee supplied the incorrect part.

get a Haynes manual and find out what you actually have.

Edited by nicklouse, 28 December 2015 - 02:07 AM.


#4 tiger99

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:12 PM

I do agree that a bad conversion would give problems, but what gives you the impression that it is an A to A+ conversion? (Not suggesting that you are wrong, just wondering what might be going on.) Surely from the dates given, both engines "should" be A+, with Verto clutches? The Metro engine is not significantly different to the Mini engine, except in some cases the manifolds, lack of bypass hose or drilling for the heater takeoff on the head (unless I missed something last time I put one in a Mini, which worked rather well once the FD was changed). The transmission is also identical, apart from final drive ratios. However, you may be on to something. Odd parts may indeed have been used. Could it be a Verto clutch cover and thrust bearing on a non-Verto clutch, or vice-versa? Verto slave cylinder and lever on a non-Verto, etc. Horrible thought.... I think that would give rise to many problems, if it worked at all.

 

mmmorris, has your car got a Verto or pre-Verto clutch? Short actuating lever and slave cylinder at an angle, or long lever and slave cylinder parallel to crankshaft? And, when you had the cover off, which internals seemed to be fitted? Diagrams here of the two types:

 

http://www.somerford...age=page&id=143

http://www.somerford...age=page&id=144

http://www.somerford...age=page&id=145



#5 nicklouse

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 02:53 PM

I do agree that a bad conversion would give problems, but what gives you the impression that it is an A to A+ conversion? (Not suggesting that you are wrong, just wondering what might be going on.) Surely from the dates given, both engines "should" be A+, with Verto clutches? The Metro engine is not significantly different to the Mini engine, except in some cases the manifolds, lack of bypass hose or drilling for the heater takeoff on the head (unless I missed something last time I put one in a Mini, which worked rather well once the FD was changed). The transmission is also identical, apart from final drive ratios. However, you may be on to something. Odd parts may indeed have been used. Could it be a Verto clutch cover and thrust bearing on a non-Verto clutch, or vice-versa? Verto slave cylinder and lever on a non-Verto, etc. Horrible thought.... I think that would give rise to many problems, if it worked at all.
 
mmmorris, has your car got a Verto or pre-Verto clutch? Short actuating lever and slave cylinder at an angle, or long lever and slave cylinder parallel to crankshaft? And, when you had the cover off, which internals seemed to be fitted? Diagrams here of the two types:
 
http://www.somerford...age=page&id=143
http://www.somerford...age=page&id=144
http://www.somerford...age=page&id=145


I did not say A to A+.

Read what has been written about needing a throw out nut on the arm? I read that as the nut and bolt that touches the arm.A series rather than the stop and lock nuts on the plunger. But I could have totally read it wrong.

But as we know when engines start getting swapped anything can be going on.

#6 tiger99

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:57 PM

But as we know when engines start getting swapped anything can be going on.

 

Indeed. I do apologise for reading wrongly what you said, it was A+ to A conversion. I think we are agreed that there may be a slightly mixed bag of bits here.

 

I am assuming that if something like 33mm was (wrongly) quoted, it must be the thowout stop nut and locknut on the end of the clutch release plunger, not the stop bolt on the arm, which last time I looked was somewhat smaller, like 1/4" (7/16" spanner), and should not be present on a Verto. Actually I would think that it would be impossible to fit it to a Verto, as the slave cylinder would be in the way, and there would be nowhere on the arm for it to act against. But then there are other errors that could have been made, like fitting the large return spring to a Verto, when all that should be there is the light spring in the slave cylinder to take up the running clearance without applying a serious amount of load to the thrust bearing. Lots of ways of getting it wrong... And, there have been a number of curious cases of clutch problems on this forum in the past, many of which were probably due to accumulations of tolerances on cheaply made parts. I wonder if there has also been a bad batch of thrust bearings, which could be involved here? If so, it is nice and simple. I like simple fixes.

 

I am no fan of Verto clutches by the way. I never saw any positive indication that they had solved the problem they were introduced to correct. Vertos judder as much as any other, it being down to the engine mounts mostly. There is also "driver induced oscillation", which is my paraphrase of what the aircraft types here will recognise as "pilot induced oscillation". To counteract that, I understand that the Metro had a hydraulic damping device, which to the best of my knowledge was never used on Minis, nor should be. If the driver wears suitable footwear and keeps his or her heel firmly on the floor, pivoting the foot properly, and is correctly positioned in the seat, the problem goes away.

 

But this is going way OT. If the OP adjusts his throwout stops, and if that doesn't work, replaces the thrust bearing (adjusting the throwout stops again of course), and the problem goes away, well and good. If not, we should help him plan some more investigations.



#7 mmmorris

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 04:35 PM

Thanks for the help guys! I've found a new slave cylinder that is correct for the car and put the stop nuts on and the noise has gone!  :proud:.... for now anyway! If anything comes up again I'll definitely refer to this page as there is a lot of useful info 

Cheers again!!



#8 cal844

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 04:56 PM

Glad its fixed, also thanks for replying with the remedial work required!

#9 Ethel

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 05:19 PM

I don't know much about the the late Allegros. but I they could well have the same slave cylinder as the Metro. The casting is the same as the Verto Mini cylinder, but the hose union is metric. It ought to be interchangeable if you use a matching banjo bolt.






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