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Rear Subframe Woes


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#1 jsiggee

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 02:02 PM

Hi guys

 

The time has come for me to replace my rear subframe, lucky I've got a new one in the shed I've been meaning pop under the car.

 

My question is, rear subby trunnions, do I need to buy new ones or will the old ones do just fine cleaned up and painted all shiny to match the new subframe?

 

My shopping list for my rear subframe currently consists of;

Smiffy's bits bolt kit

New knuckle joints

minispares rear subframe fitting kit

 

 

My thinking is, If I don't NEED new trunnions then I will do away with the fitting kit and just order the pins and bushes because all the bolts will be Smiffy's lovely shiny stainless items.

 

Cheers, James



#2 sonikk4

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 02:04 PM

Your old trunnions should be fine. Wire brush them and give them a lick of paint. Or if you have time sand blast and powdercoat.



#3 Wise Old Elf

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 02:16 PM

Prob worth popping new rubber bushes on whilst they are off.

#4 Stevie W

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 02:36 PM

Might want to consider new cones if the old ones are a bit saggy!!

Cheers, Steve.

#5 dyshipfakta

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 03:09 PM

New rear brake cylinders. Very common failing item and much much easier to fit with radius arms removed from the car. Only about a 10a too

#6 ukcooper

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 03:24 PM

Here's my list from before I was ill .


DNS
Rear Subframe Mounting Trunnions - RetroSport Billet Alloy - '76 on £52.26

Minispares

KHB100590 REAR SUBFRAME " SPORTSPACK " STRENGTHENED £334
AEU1541A 2 off PLUG FOR REAR BRAKE BACKPLATE £1.50
GVC2134 HANDBRAKE CABLE, REAR SECTION MK4/1976 ON £4.00
GVC2135 HANDBRAKE CABLE FRONT SECTION, MK4/1976 ON 25"LONG £2.75
17H7612 2 off HANDBRAKE LEVER GAITER ON REAR BACKPLATE £2.00
AJJ4031B BRAIDED REAR BRAKE HOSES WITH BANJO TYPE END (PAIR) £21.32
MS43 REAR SUBFRAME BOLTS AND BUSHES ONLY FITTING KIT 1976on £23.18
GFK5184 20 off SETSCREW 5/16" X 3/4" UNF £0.72
MS69 NEGATIVE CAMBER BRACKETS REAR FIXED 1.5 neg cam £19.99
SH605181 6 off REAR SUBFRAME TRUNNION MOUNTING BOLT 1976 ON £6.00
GEX7761 4 off GASKET FOR EXHAUST CATALYTIC CONVERTER £5.00
NV110051 6 off CATALYTIC CONVERTER NUT M10 METRIC £3.60
GFK1114 20 off WASHER PLAIN 5/16" x 11/16" £0.80
GFK1125 20 off SPRING WASHER 5/16" X 19/32" £2.00
TRA33 l/h radius arm recon £38.58
TRA32 r/h radius arm recon £38.58
castle nut l/h and r/h £8
brake union 3 way £10.40
CDU1173 - HUB BEARING TO RADIUS ARM SEAL 4 In stock £0.60 £2.40
21A1060KIT - BRAKE BACK PLATE BUILT UP L/H WITH SHOES AND CYLINDER £63.09
21A1058KIT - BRAKE BACKPLATE BUILT UP R/H WITH SHOES AND CYLINDER £63.09


Ebay

Smiffys Bits ROVER MINI COOPER MPI / SPI FUEL FILTER BRACKET STAINLESS STEEL £25
Smiffys Bits CLASSIC MINI REAR SUBFRAME MOUNTING WASHERS STAINLESS £5
Smiffys Bits CLASSIC MINI BRAKE DRUM SCREWS STAINLESS STEEL FOR SPACER TYPE DRUMS £5
Classic Mini Rear Subframe Brake Pipe Kit.( Cupro Nickel) £10
Mini Parts TITNIUM handbrake clevis pin set £8.30
Mini Parts TITANIUM Handbrake Quadrant Clevis Pins for CLASSIC MINI 35gm £14.50
WD-40 Fast Release Penetrant Maintenance Smart Straw Aerosol 400ML Spray WD44362 £7.99
7/16 UNF Seat Belt Eye Bolt Stainless Steel (A2) Nyloc Nylock Lock Nut £8
TITANIUM rear trunnion bolts 5/16" unf x 2 1/2". Classic Mini. Set of 4 £17
Chassis Protection Black Paint by Frost 1 litre durable chip resistant gloss £20.54
mini mine Classic Mini Grease Nipple Kit £4.50
Hammerite Red Oxide Primer 500ml £8.99
5/16 unf x1" stainless hex bolts and nylon nuts 10 of each £8
Mini mine ROVER REAR HANDBRAKE CABLE BRACKET PAIR £10.56
Mini mine Handbrake Levers NEW PAIR SMN10005 "11.75

#7 jsiggee

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 06:44 PM

Cheers for replies, I will just use the old ones, wire brush them and paint them up.

 

No need to worry about the rear cylinders, they were new last year and I replaced all the rubber cones 4 years ago. All  rubber bushes will be replaced. If I need anything for the radius arms I will tackle that when I come to it I think

 

Cheers, James



#8 tiger99

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 10:03 PM

Please DO NOT use the stainless steel bolts. They have very poor fatigue properties compared to the correct 8.8 grade bolts, and may well fail after a while, as well as possibly causing dissimilar metal corrosion and seizing tight into the captive nuts, so they can.'t be removed.

 

Stainless should NEVER be used on any structural part of any car, unless it was designed that way.

 

Smiffys Bits make stuff with pose factor. It is not engineered.



#9 dyshipfakta

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 10:29 PM

The tapered mild steel bolts are much much easier to thread I was worried about threading the stainless bolts and stuff in the heel board so decided to clean and reuse the originals where possible. Does anyone know where one might get some new ones of these that have the taper at the end and aren't stainless?

#10 tiger99

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:36 PM

NEVER use mild steel bolts! That would be very dangerous. The ONLY acceptable bolts, and what would have been in your car already, are high tensile grade 8.8, or if you want to waste money, or happen to have some already, or use capheads, grade 10.9. Grade 12.9 should not be used on account of it being more brittle. (I recall that only 8.8 and 10.9 are allowed on seatbelt bolts for that reason). You may be surprised to learn that car bolts are a higher grade of steel than those that hold most bridges and other structures together, although civil engineering has finally caught up with "high strength friction grip" bolts, which are actually only about grade 8.8 but with special heads and washers.

 

If you need the taper ended bolts I would try somewhere reputable like Somerford Mini, or apply the taper yourself, carefully, with whatever tools you have. A lathe is ideal but you can carefully file or grind a reasonable taper by hand. Put a nut on first, when you remove it, it will clean up any minor damage that you have done. Needless to say, the taper must only be beyond the captive nut, which must be fully engaging unmolested bolt thread.

 

If ANY of your bolts do not show 8.8 (or if very old, S, the old British Standard grade, basically identical to 8.8) on the head, and if nuts are not marked for grade 8 or above, they must be changed. If you take to the road with mild steel fixings, a serious accident is likely. Note that B&Q sell only mild steel bolts, they must not be used. Oh, and no plated bolts, such as chrome or nickel, ever, unless they are supplied with paperwork showing that they have had the proper post-plating heat treatment to avoid hydrogen embrittlement, which is very dangerous. Mechanically zinc plated bolts (sherardised) or hot dip plated (galvanised) are ok, but electroplated zinc most certainly is not, without the heat treatment. DIY plating kits should carry a warning, but usually don't.

 

See below for info on bolt markings, but note that metric (ISO) markings e.g. 8.8 are frequently used on imperial (5/16" UNF in this case) bolts and that is ok. Also US Grade 5 is actually 8.8. US grade 2 is mild steel. Don't use ISO grade 4.6 which is mild steel.

 

https://www.boltdepo...rade-chart.aspx

http://www.thomsonra...s and bolts.pdf

 

The second link shows the correct head and nut markings. Never mind it referring to metric bolts, which are not used on most Minis, the same markings are used on UNF bolts nowadays.

 

I am saying all this because it is important to ask for what you need as far as bolts are concerned. The supplier can't usually guess what you are doing with them. In most cases just order up the appropriate length, diameter and thread, usually UNF, clearly specify grade 8.8, and you will get the right thing. Otherwise you will usually get mild steel....

 

Exhaust bracket bolts are usually of cheap galvanised mild steel, because they are not very highly stressed and get replaced regularly along with the exhaust, so please don't procure anything except exhaust system bolts from Kwikfit or similar. It is perfectly ok, if you have a stock of 8.8 bolts, to use them on your exhaust of course.



#11 dyshipfakta

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 12:35 AM

I just meant not stainless as in what ever oem was lol interesting to know though. Shame my old man isn't still around as he was a Manager for a big steel fixings company.

Edited by dyshipfakta, 03 January 2016 - 12:42 AM.


#12 jsiggee

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 03:50 PM

Please DO NOT use the stainless steel bolts. They have very poor fatigue properties compared to the correct 8.8 grade bolts, and may well fail after a while, as well as possibly causing dissimilar metal corrosion and seizing tight into the captive nuts, so they can.'t be removed.

 

Stainless should NEVER be used on any structural part of any car, unless it was designed that way.

 

Smiffys Bits make stuff with pose factor. It is not engineered.

 

Thanks Trigger99, That's a very good point which I overlooked. I can take them off of my shopping list.

Does anyone know which bolts are supplied in the Minispares rear subframe bolt, pin and bush kit?



#13 sonikk4

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 04:24 PM

They will be the correct bolts for the car.

#14 tiger99

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 04:46 PM

Yes, they are just normal grade 8.8 hex head bolts. These are actually quite cheap in the more common sizes. "High tensile" sounds exotic, but is actually commonplace in the sizes found on a car. Sadly not so in most retail outfits like B&Q or Screwfix. Nut and bolt stockists like Namrick have lots of them.

 

Actually. contrary to what you might expect, both the long and short trunnion bolts on al least two of my Minis, one owned from new, were actually set screws (i.e. threaded right up to the head) rather than bolts, That is more or less necessary on the short bolts but possibly surprising on the long ones. I just mention it in case you are supplied with set screws and think they may be wrong. They are not. Bolts are not wrong either as long as the plain shank does not extend fully through the trunnion, for obvious reasons. The vertical load on the front trunnions is supposed to be transferred to the heelboard by friction, not by shear, and in any case the bolts are not an exact fit in reamed holes in the trunnions but are rather loose,. so relying on shear loading of the bolts would have the trunnions sliding about, fretting, and breaking the bolts. Correctly torquing the bolts or set screws takes care of all that.



#15 Ben_O

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 04:48 PM

 

Please DO NOT use the stainless steel bolts. They have very poor fatigue properties compared to the correct 8.8 grade bolts, and may well fail after a while, as well as possibly causing dissimilar metal corrosion and seizing tight into the captive nuts, so they can.'t be removed.

 

Stainless should NEVER be used on any structural part of any car, unless it was designed that way.

 

Smiffys Bits make stuff with pose factor. It is not engineered.

 

Thanks Trigger99, That's a very good point which I overlooked. I can take them off of my shopping list.

Does anyone know which bolts are supplied in the Minispares rear subframe bolt, pin and bush kit?

 

this Kit has the bits you need

 

http://www.minispare...|Back to search

 

I have just done a rear subframe on a Mini at work and the customer supplied the Smiffys fitting kit. I left it well alone. As has been said, they are not really good enough for a subframe

 

Ben






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