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Spi To Carbs


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#1 Tags

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:38 PM

Hi everyone, I tried asking a similar question in general chat but didn't get a reply so I thought I'd try here.

 

I have recently purchased a 96 SPi which I had planned putting some big carbs (or twin carbs) on and trying to make it as fast as I could. After purchasing it I realised that it being a 1996 this might not be possible due to the emissions. Now I'm regretting not going for something older, but at least the shell is pretty solid.

 

Can anyone suggest a way of getting around the emissions issue (I have read about swapping in an older engine but cannot seem to get an definite answer if its actually works or not) or should I just sell it and get something older?

 

 



#2 greenmini1275

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:07 PM

I think unless your planning on keeping the Cat, which will sap a lot of power, you will fail the MOT for not having a Cat, which you have to have fitted on cars made after April 1992 I believe.

#3 greenmini1275

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:11 PM

Also from what I understand, it is the car that is the issue, I have a 1993 SPI engine converted to Carb in my 1990 Mayfair but because the car is pre 1992, it doesn't need a cat, but I think because of the age of your car you will need to retain the cat for MOTs.

As for emissions, as long as you keep the CAT, it shouldn't be too difficult to keep emissions under control.

#4 Northernpower

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:21 PM

If you're after a performance upgrade consider the Specialist Components injection and ECU package. That way you'll be able to keep the cat and have something tunable if you decide on further upgrades in the future.

#5 FlyingScot

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:34 PM

I think unless your planning on keeping the Cat, which will sap a lot of power, you will fail the MOT for not having a Cat, which you have to have fitted on cars made after April 1992 I believe.

Really? Define a lot of power? Most quotes I have seen say 1bhp so if you have evidence it's more than that I would be very interested.

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#6 FlyingScot

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:37 PM

OP what are you looking for?
Cooper in good fettle will make 63bhp +-2 bhp you can change filter, head and cam and get moreut if your looking for being big power it's going to cost.

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#7 Sprocket

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:21 PM

keeping the Cat, which will sap a lot of power,

 Absolute tosh!............

 

It is never wise to give out unsubstantiated information.



#8 Sprocket

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:24 PM

There is from time to time some confusion that reigns over MOT emissions tests carried out on Minis. For the most, it is fairly straight forward, but for the few, it can be a nightmare.

If you have a post 92 Mini, it can sometimes become an nightmare at MOT time, mainly down to the monkey carrying out the wrong test. Below is the current MOT emissions standards for the Mini in order of oldest first youngest last in logical order.

All vehicles Pre 1st August 1975 - Visual Only

All vehicles Post 31st July 1975, Pre 1st August 1986 - less than 4.5%CO and less than 1200ppm HC

All Vehicles Post 31st July 1986, Pre 1st August 1992 - less than 3.5%CO and less than 1200ppm HC

(this is where it gets complicated)
All vehicles Post July 31st 1992 Pre 1st August 1995 - 'BET test'. Natural idle - less than 0.3%CO. Fast idle - less than 0.2%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, between 0.97 and 1.03 Lambda.

If the emissions result from the 'BET test' is a fail, the Tester must then look for vehicle specific data and carry out a 'CAT test' or 'Non CAT' test depending on the available data as explained in the next paragraph. (Chances are any Mini will fail the 'BET test' especially without a catalytic converter)

All Vehicles Post 31st July 1992, pre 1st August 1995 - 'CAT test' - Can the Tester find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book?

Reffering to the Vehicle Vehicle Identification Number

462092-1.jpg

Mini - Model Code XN
1.3l Auto TBi/SPi VIN - Engine Code X, Serial No 059845 onwards. Natural idle - less than 0.75%CO. Fast Idle - less than 0.3%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, Between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda.
1.3l Manual TBi/SPi VIN - Engine Code X, Serial No 059822 onwards. (Engine Number - 12A2D non Cooper or 12A2E Cooper) Natural idle - less than 0.75%CO. Fast Idle - less than 0.3%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, Between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda.

If the Tester can match the VIN to the above information, the vehicle specific data above will be used to carry out a 'CAT test'. The catalytic converter MUST be present where fitted as standard. If the Tester cannot match the VIN to the vehicle specific data, the following data is used for a 'Non CAT test' - Less than 3.5%CO, less than 1200ppm HC. Catalytic converter does not need to be present.

All vehicles Post 31st July 1995, pre 1st August 2002 - 'CAT test' - Can the Tester find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book?
Mini - Model Code XN
1.3l TBi/SPi VIN - Engine Code Y, Serial No 060488 onwards. (Engine number - 12A2E) Natural idle - less than 0.75%CO. Fast Idle - 0.3%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, Between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda. Catalytic converter MUST be present.
1.3l MPi VIN - Engine Code Z, Serial No ALL. (Engine number - 12A2L) Natural idle - less than 0.5%CO. Fast idle - less than 0.3%CO, less than 200ppm HC, between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda. Cataltic converter MUST be present.

If the Tester cannot match the VIN to any of this data, the following default data will be used - Natural idle - Less than 0.5%CO. Fast idle - Less than 0.3%CO, less than 200ppm HC, between 0.97 and 1.03 Lambda. (note that these limits are tighter than the vehicle specific). Catalytic converter MUST be present.

If the engine fitted is an older engine, emissions may be tested to the data the engine relates to. It is up to the person presenting the car to the Tester to to prove the engines age and identity.

Either way, the emissions test is carried out to whichever is oldest, the car (VIN checked against VOSA In service data) or the engine (up to you to provide valid proof of engine identity and age).




To summarise.

Any Mini pre 1st August 1992 there should be no reason it will not pass an MOT emission test.

Any Mini Post 31st July 1992 will require the MOT Tester to ensure he is carrying out the correct test by following the procedures laid out in the VOSA MOT Inspection manual, also reffering to the VOSA In Service Exhaust Emission Standards For Road Vehicles, or following the MOT analyser computer's instructions (it is this that the monkey either doesn't know how to, or just can't be bothered to, wich can lead to an unjustified fail). If you read the above information for 92 to 95 cars carefully, you can see a loop hole, since if emissions fail on the 'BET test', and the VIN  does not match the vehicle specific data, the Tester should use the 'Non CAT test' data. Any Mini in this catagory should have no reason to fail the 'Non CAT test'. Remember that if the car is tested with a 'CAT test', the catalytic converter MUST be present. It would likely fail without the cat anyway in that case.

Any Mini post 31st July 1995 will have to pass at the very least a 'CAT test' with default data (which is tighter than the vehicle specific data) and there MUST be a catalytic converter present. This is of course dependant on the age of the engine, and it is up to the person presenting the car at the test station to provide proof of the identity and age of the engine.
 



#9 Tags

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:24 PM

I have been looking into the programmable ECU route but i like the simplicity of carbs and the fact i would be able to tune them myself (which is something i would like to learn). They are also very pricey

How easy would it be for a carbed engine to pass emissions with a cat?

My goal at the moment is 100hp.

#10 Tags

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:33 PM

There is from time to time some confusion that reigns over MOT emissions tests carried out on Minis. For the most, it is fairly straight forward, but for the few, it can be a nightmare.

If you have a post 92 Mini, it can sometimes become an nightmare at MOT time, mainly down to the monkey carrying out the wrong test. Below is the current MOT emissions standards for the Mini in order of oldest first youngest last in logical order.

All vehicles Pre 1st August 1975 - Visual Only

All vehicles Post 31st July 1975, Pre 1st August 1986 - less than 4.5%CO and less than 1200ppm HC

All Vehicles Post 31st July 1986, Pre 1st August 1992 - less than 3.5%CO and less than 1200ppm HC

(this is where it gets complicated)
All vehicles Post July 31st 1992 Pre 1st August 1995 - 'BET test'. Natural idle - less than 0.3%CO. Fast idle - less than 0.2%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, between 0.97 and 1.03 Lambda.

If the emissions result from the 'BET test' is a fail, the Tester must then look for vehicle specific data and carry out a 'CAT test' or 'Non CAT' test depending on the available data as explained in the next paragraph. (Chances are any Mini will fail the 'BET test' especially without a catalytic converter)

All Vehicles Post 31st July 1992, pre 1st August 1995 - 'CAT test' - Can the Tester find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book?

Reffering to the Vehicle Vehicle Identification Number

462092-1.jpg

Mini - Model Code XN
1.3l Auto TBi/SPi VIN - Engine Code X, Serial No 059845 onwards. Natural idle - less than 0.75%CO. Fast Idle - less than 0.3%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, Between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda.
1.3l Manual TBi/SPi VIN - Engine Code X, Serial No 059822 onwards. (Engine Number - 12A2D non Cooper or 12A2E Cooper) Natural idle - less than 0.75%CO. Fast Idle - less than 0.3%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, Between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda.

If the Tester can match the VIN to the above information, the vehicle specific data above will be used to carry out a 'CAT test'. The catalytic converter MUST be present where fitted as standard. If the Tester cannot match the VIN to the vehicle specific data, the following data is used for a 'Non CAT test' - Less than 3.5%CO, less than 1200ppm HC. Catalytic converter does not need to be present.

All vehicles Post 31st July 1995, pre 1st August 2002 - 'CAT test' - Can the Tester find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book?
Mini - Model Code XN
1.3l TBi/SPi VIN - Engine Code Y, Serial No 060488 onwards. (Engine number - 12A2E) Natural idle - less than 0.75%CO. Fast Idle - 0.3%CO, Less than 200ppm HC, Between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda. Catalytic converter MUST be present.
1.3l MPi VIN - Engine Code Z, Serial No ALL. (Engine number - 12A2L) Natural idle - less than 0.5%CO. Fast idle - less than 0.3%CO, less than 200ppm HC, between 0.95 and 1.09 Lambda. Cataltic converter MUST be present.

If the Tester cannot match the VIN to any of this data, the following default data will be used - Natural idle - Less than 0.5%CO. Fast idle - Less than 0.3%CO, less than 200ppm HC, between 0.97 and 1.03 Lambda. (note that these limits are tighter than the vehicle specific). Catalytic converter MUST be present.

If the engine fitted is an older engine, emissions may be tested to the data the engine relates to. It is up to the person presenting the car to the Tester to to prove the engines age and identity.

Either way, the emissions test is carried out to whichever is oldest, the car (VIN checked against VOSA In service data) or the engine (up to you to provide valid proof of engine identity and age).




To summarise.

Any Mini pre 1st August 1992 there should be no reason it will not pass an MOT emission test.

Any Mini Post 31st July 1992 will require the MOT Tester to ensure he is carrying out the correct test by following the procedures laid out in the VOSA MOT Inspection manual, also reffering to the VOSA In Service Exhaust Emission Standards For Road Vehicles, or following the MOT analyser computer's instructions (it is this that the monkey either doesn't know how to, or just can't be bothered to, wich can lead to an unjustified fail). If you read the above information for 92 to 95 cars carefully, you can see a loop hole, since if emissions fail on the 'BET test', and the VIN  does not match the vehicle specific data, the Tester should use the 'Non CAT test' data. Any Mini in this catagory should have no reason to fail the 'Non CAT test'. Remember that if the car is tested with a 'CAT test', the catalytic converter MUST be present. It would likely fail without the cat anyway in that case.

Any Mini post 31st July 1995 will have to pass at the very least a 'CAT test' with default data (which is tighter than the vehicle specific data) and there MUST be a catalytic converter present. This is of course dependant on the age of the engine, and it is up to the person presenting the car at the test station to provide proof of the identity and age of the engine.
 


Wow thanks for that, it is what i have been looking for for a while.

So it basically means my only option for running carbs would be to swap the engine.

Do you know how you would be able to prove the age of the engine?

#11 Sprocket

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:44 PM

by looking at the info in the post above, you will see the engine numbers that relate to the SPi and MPi variants, 12A2D, 12A2E and 12A2L. Any of the later A+ carb engine numbers will be 12A2A or 12A2B, for example.

 

The engine number on a 1996 SPi will be stamped into the block its self, rather than on a separate plate as on all older engines. the rivet holes will still be present though.



#12 greenmini1275

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 07:33 AM


keeping the Cat, which will sap a lot of power,

 Absolute tosh!............
 
It is never wise to give out unsubstantiated information.



It's not misinformation, when I took the cat off my car I noticed a massive difference, I don't know the exact figures, but it was an obvious massive improvement. A mate took his car off his MPI and again the improvement was massive, but again no figures, just personal experience.

#13 Nu2mini

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 07:58 AM

Once again the topic of converting back from SPI to Carb resurfaces. I just ask Why would you want to ??

 

As FlyingScot says we have a starting figure of around 63bhp.

Also, although he's not mentioned it here, If my memory is correct, Sprocket has also proved that you can get very close to 100bhp with the stock ECU.

So depending on your budget and commitment in time you can achieve a figure somewhere between these two 

Now lets also figure in the RELIABILITY Factor. If everything is working as it should a fuel injected car, even with the standard SPI Cooper map, has the ability to match fueling to the exact moment. Don't misunderstand me I've nothing but admiration for my Carb bretheren. I'm just not as dedicated, and I never have enough time to do all the other things I want to do on my mini let alone worry about the "Tuning Issue".

 

So it's Fuel Injection everythime for me, and so far this year my driving to tinkering ratio is well over 100:1. Oh and the stock 63bhp should put a :-)  :-) on anyones face. It's certainly enough for me.



#14 CityEPete

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 08:06 AM

My 1995 Mayfair has a factory carb and a CAT, bloody thing doesn't fit in anywhere :lol:



#15 greenmini1275

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:21 AM

Once again the topic of converting back from SPI to Carb resurfaces. I just ask Why would you want to ??
 
As FlyingScot says we have a starting figure of around 63bhp.
Also, although he's not mentioned it here, If my memory is correct, Sprocket has also proved that you can get very close to 100bhp with the stock ECU.
So depending on your budget and commitment in time you can achieve a figure somewhere between these two 
Now lets also figure in the RELIABILITY Factor. If everything is working as it should a fuel injected car, even with the standard SPI Cooper map, has the ability to match fueling to the exact moment. Don't misunderstand me I've nothing but admiration for my Carb bretheren. I'm just not as dedicated, and I never have enough time to do all the other things I want to do on my mini let alone worry about the "Tuning Issue".
 
So it's Fuel Injection everythime for me, and so far this year my driving to tinkering ratio is well over 100:1. Oh and the stock 63bhp should put a :-)  :-) on anyones face. It's certainly enough for me.



If it wasn't such a ball ache, I'd fit injection in my car. The cars previous owner had ditched the SPI stuff, but not the cat, I had to do that. I don't want the SC injection as it's just a bit too loud for me, in my old age I'm trying to make my car quieter. As I understand it, with the SPI and an aftermarket ECU and filter and stuff, you can get some decent power. I'm not sure about 100bhp, correct me if I'm wrong but that would involve some hefty internal work as well as head, cam etc, but certainly 80/85bhp should be achievable, and as said above 65bhp is fast enough. Apart from being converted to Carb, my engine is the standard Cooper engine and I can 100mph out of it, on German autobahn, honestly😇, and acceleration is brilliant, especially with 10" wheels.




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