Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

A Question Of Balance - Brake Balance


Best Answer Aridgerunner , 02 June 2017 - 01:52 AM

Thanks again. I'll be sure to use the 5/8" bore. Go to the full post


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 Aridgerunner

Aridgerunner

    Mini Mad

  • Noobies
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location: Montoursville PA
  • Local Club: None

Posted 26 May 2017 - 05:45 PM

I've read a lot about brake balance on here and I'm still left wondering if I'm going to be facing a problem TJ's 1978 Mini when I get to the brake system.

 

The car came with Cooper front rotors and Cooper rear drums.  The split system master cylinder was installed without a brake proportioning valve.  The OP set it so one part of the master cylinder works left front and right rear and the other part works right front and left rear.  Obviously the plan is that if one section fails at least there will be one rear and one front brake trying to stop the car and therefore making it easier to control. Under normal driving the car stopped fine.  We never had a chance to do a panic stop before we dismantled the car so I can't say how well the brakes worked in that situation.

 

I'm looking for suggestions here as to what, if anything, I need to do about the brakes.  

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Bill



#2 cal844

cal844

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,660 posts
  • Location: Ballingry, Fife
  • Local Club: TFMOC

Posted 26 May 2017 - 06:14 PM

Replace all pipes and hoses

Give the calipers a good look over

#3 nicklouse

nicklouse

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,724 posts
  • Location: Not Yorkshire
  • Local Club: Anonyme Miniholiker

Posted 26 May 2017 - 06:35 PM

right Cooper or Cooper S there is a big difference 7" or 7.5" rotors.

 

the diagonal split brakes should have a PDA and were the earliest dual circuit set up on the Mini.



#4 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,201 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 26 May 2017 - 08:19 PM

Careful if you need to replace the Master Cylinder on that set up. It's a Diagonal Split System. The PO may have set it up with this, however, they were also produced at the factory like this too.

 

You cannot use a Yellow Tag Master Cylinder, it has to be a Green Tag type, P/N GMC167.

 

In the factory Produced set ups, they dropped the PDA Valve about 1975 - 76. The PDA Valve did not regulate the rear brake pressure in any way, it was merely a means of fitting a 'Brake Fail' Switch to provide indication of a Brake problem. They only dropped these as the CMC167 Master Cylinder has a PDA built in.

 

Brake Balance was achieved with these set ups by fitting a small bore Rear Wheel Cylinder, when Discs were fitted up front, these were 1/2" bore size, Part No. GWC1126



#5 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 26 May 2017 - 10:58 PM

Correct, but it was actually a PDWA (Pressure Differential Warning Actuator) first seen on certain Triumph models, and consisting only of a shuttle operating between two pressure chambers, one in each circuit, which when moved off centre by a pressure imbalance operated a switch. It contained no valves.

 

That system is in theory perfectly proportioned under all road conditions, as it is not using a limiter, optimised for a particular coefficient of friction. The later system, and indeed all such systems in hydrostatic hydraulic systems, are limiters, and if they are optimised for wet roads, there will not be the full possible rear braking on dry roads, while if they are optimised for dry roads, there will be severe rear wheel locking on wet roads. (There are added complications with changes in vehicle loading.) The only practical way of getting true proportioning is either designing it in by cylinder bore sizes or using a balance bar. The fancy Willwood valves are not proportioning valves, despite being called such, they are dual slope limiters. You can however get true proportioning (and PROPER ABS, not a bodge job!) in a power hydraulic system as in all large aircraft and certain Citroen and Rolls cars.

 

However I would really NOT like the diagonal split system on my car, as the Mini does not have negative scrub radius geometry at the front and therefore can be expected to be highly unstable in the event of a single failure. (That is one reason for Metro hubs being completely unsuitable on the Mini, the scrub radius is very different.) If I had one of these models I would feel obliged to do some testing, on a track, with solenoid valves wired into each circuit to, when energised, dump pressure back into the reservoir, to see what really happens. (I would do the same test on any radically altered brake configuration to check for adequate fluid displacement after first failure, as it is essential that if one circuit fails, the other will still operate within one single stroke of the pedal.

 

The later valve, which Moke Spider refers to is a limiter, with drawbacks as described. However it has a major safety feature built in. It is pressure in the FRONT circuit that closes the valve to block pressure to the REAR circuit, so if you have a FRONT failure, full pressure passes to the REAR to give you at least some chance of stopping. For that reason, it is vitally important to plumb the valve the correct way around, and people often ask about that. (Otherwise a relatively unimportant REAR failure would result in the FRONT limiting at about 450psi, or whatever the setting is, which would be less than typical normal braking, far less emergency,) The pictures in the Rover manual show all that is needed.

 

In my opinion the best configuration would be to use a PDWA in a split front/rear system with 0.5" rear cylinders because then you get proportional balance and pressure balance failure warning. But there is no scope for balance adjustment if you find it to be necessary, except by changing pads or shoes.



#6 Aridgerunner

Aridgerunner

    Mini Mad

  • Noobies
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location: Montoursville PA
  • Local Club: None

Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:30 PM

As so often happens, when you ask a question you get a homework assignment. I know the front rotors are 7.5" Does that mean they are S? Or, could they be MG Metro? The engine is a Metro and I have verified that based on the engine number. So, how do I tell if I have Metro hubs?

I have all new cunifer pipes and new hoses. It will be needing new rotors. My homework assignment is to take a few pictures of the master cylinder (which is new) and pictures of how the pipes are run. I will not be able to this until mid next week.

Thanks for all of the replies.

Bill

#7 nicklouse

nicklouse

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,724 posts
  • Location: Not Yorkshire
  • Local Club: Anonyme Miniholiker

Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:53 PM

Metro and later disced Minis are 8.4" and don't fit under 10" wheels. Also note the metro drive flanges need to be modded to work on the Mini as the wheel bore diameter is different.
The ball joints are different. And metro hubs don't really work on the Mini easy to compare what you have with your manual.

#8 Aridgerunner

Aridgerunner

    Mini Mad

  • Noobies
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location: Montoursville PA
  • Local Club: None

Posted 27 May 2017 - 02:05 AM

All right then, it sounds like the front brakes are Cooper S and the hubs are standard Mini. I do have a Haynes manual but I've found it to be rather lacking in the needed details. I'll look for a better one.

I'll be back next week.

#9 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,201 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 27 May 2017 - 07:20 AM

 I know the front rotors are 7.5" Does that mean they are S? Or, could they be MG Metro?

 

7.0" Discs are Cooper. There were two types in these.

7.5" Discs were (as you've asked) Cooper S.

8.4" Discs are usually Mini ones, first fitted to the 1275 GT in 1974. The Metro's also had a solid 8.4" Disc, later Metros had a Vented Disc of the same size, first fitted to the MG and MG Turbo Models. They were also fitted to the ERA Turbo Mini.

 

There's also a variety of after market and modified Disc set up from 7.5" up to 10.5".



#10 MRA

MRA

    Previously known as 'mra-minis.co.uk'.

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,607 posts
  • Location: Due to move again....

Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:32 PM

 

 I know the front rotors are 7.5" Does that mean they are S? Or, could they be MG Metro?

 

7.0" Discs are Cooper. There were two types in these.

7.5" Discs were (as you've asked) Cooper S.

8.4" Discs are usually Mini ones, first fitted to the 1275 GT in 1974. The Metro's also had a solid 8.4" Disc, later Metros had a Vented Disc of the same size, first fitted to the MG and MG Turbo Models. They were also fitted to the ERA Turbo Mini.

 

There's also a variety of after market and modified Disc set up from 7.5" up to 10.5".

 

7.0" are not worth buying unless you want to remake a genuine cooper 997 or 998 these where worse than drums

7.5" also fitted to early 1275 GT

8.4" vented where only fitted to Turbo Mk1, then all later models across the board at the same time.

Aftermarket sizes are from 7.5" to 11.2" with various piston sizes and counts..



#11 Aridgerunner

Aridgerunner

    Mini Mad

  • Noobies
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location: Montoursville PA
  • Local Club: None

Posted 29 May 2017 - 10:00 PM

I've seen all of those different types in the catalogs. Because the car needs new rotors it might be time to move up in diameter. Also the new wheels are the black Ultralites, 5 1/2"X12" with 165/60 Yokahama a539 tires.

I'll post some pictures of the brake master cylinder and pipes as soon as I can get back into the shop.

#12 Aridgerunner

Aridgerunner

    Mini Mad

  • Noobies
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location: Montoursville PA
  • Local Club: None

Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:42 PM

OK guys, here's what I've got.  The master cylinder is the yellow tag.  It is totally new and never had fluid in it.  The pipes are also new and set up for a diagonal split system.  I'll be happy to change that in whatever way is necessary to get the best braking system, without blowing a bunch of money. Which means no new master cylinder.

 

Attached File  DSC_0095.JPG   71.29K   4 downloads

 

I also have a new PDWA.  I am not sure how to run the pipes to it or if I even need it.

 

Attached File  DSC_0096.JPG   48.26K   4 downloads

 

Please keep in mind that while this car is supposed to be 1978 I really have no clue what it actually is.  It was originally a right hand drive car from the UK.  Someone before me converted it to LHD and set up the brake system.  I installed the new master cylinder and followed the PO's lead. I may have been lead astray!

 

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Bill

 

 



#13 nicklouse

nicklouse

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,724 posts
  • Location: Not Yorkshire
  • Local Club: Anonyme Miniholiker

Posted 01 June 2017 - 02:51 PM

Ok I would say you will be re doing the brake pipes to a front rear split as that is what the MC is for.

 

any numbers on the "PDWA" so we can see what it actually is (or link to where it was bought).



#14 Aridgerunner

Aridgerunner

    Mini Mad

  • Noobies
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location: Montoursville PA
  • Local Club: None

Posted 01 June 2017 - 04:57 PM

Ok I would say you will be re doing the brake pipes to a front rear split as that is what the MC is for.
 
any numbers on the "PDWA" so we can see what it actually is (or link to where it was bought).


The PDWA is the FAM7821 for 1978 and on cars with front rear split. So all I need now is to figure out to run the pipes. I know the PDWA gets mounted horizontally on the firewall based on images I've Googled. I have seen the fitment instructions for the stepped master cylinder and that makes it clear how to run the pipes from the cylinder to the PDWA. It's after that where I get lost.

There are two ports on the underside of the PDWA. Which ine goes to the front and which goes to the rear? Once I know that I should be OK.

Thanks again.

#15 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 01 June 2017 - 05:07 PM

Is there not a clue in the thread size if the ports? The tube and flare sizes are standard but the tube nuts are delibarately not in some cases to help avoid getting them wrong.

Your valve surely is a PRV, not a PDWA?

Just leaving work now, I will be back later with the correct info unless someone beats me to it.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users