13 replies to this topic

[Bookend69]

Hi All

 

I'm new to the forum and introduced myself in the Newbe section.

 

I'm enquiring what the quickest and cheapest way of identifying real a '67 Cooper S is please? 

 

I looked at the Heritage Site, but don't want to spend out £42 on a punt that might not go anywhere. Obviously, once I've bought the car, I will be getting as much information as possible but as I'm viewing the car on Monday, at which time I'll get the chassis and engine numbers, I am likely to need to make a fairly quick decision.

 

Cheers

 

Martyn

[paul50]

Send a message to cooperman

[ace01]

The Heritage certificate only confirms the production of the car.  It doesn't confirm that what you are looking at is the real deal.

 

Research is the best thing you can do.  If you join the MCR forum, although it is a bit dead at the moment, it does have an excellent archive that gives loads of detail.

 

John Parnell's book, Original Mini Cooper and S is excellent.  Although John had to reduce the original content to suit the market, the detail in the book is superb.  Many regard this as "the bible".  I think it is available new in softback.  SH copies do come up on Ebay.

[nicklouse]

basically you need to know what you are looking at and what to look out for. and anything that is not as expected needs some sort of paperwork to prove it.

 

as above the book and the forum are great. the other option is to take someone who knows these cars.

 

or post up the advert or some photos.

[Itsaminithing]

The registration document & chassis/engine plates will probably be genuine- so any document search will prove absolutely NOTHING.

The engine & chassis plates take less than 10 minutes to fit to any other Mini.

 

A GENUINE Cooper S costs around £20,000 & upwards! If it's cheaper than that i'd be VERY suspicious, & you would be a fool part with that sort of money without having someone with you who knows how to spot a genuine S (& there are some very good forgeries out there).

[absx2]

Parnells Original Mini Cooper and Cooper S book

 

Its a no brainer I have owned a handful of Cooper and S models ( still have two ) and considering the price these days I would not view one with the intention to buy it without that book in my hand. 

[MatthewsDad]

The Mini Cooper Register publishes an informative guide on the many differences between the different marks of Cooper and Cooper S models, even down to the date codes in the window glass. Also worth contacting the relevant registrar from the MCR to check whether the car is already known to them. I'd be really cautious about buying any 60s Cooper without taking along someone who really knows their stuff, or doing a shed load of homework first. There's lots of support our there, no need to go it alone.

[Cooperman]

You have a PM.

[Spider]

There's also the (new) Mini Cooper Forum ;-  https://www.minicoop...f1c824e9aa7df82

 

and also the MKI Forum;-  http://mk1-forum.net/index.php

 

Some very highly experienced folk who have been around these cars for a very long time.

 

I think making 110% sure that the shell on the car, is the real deal and not a re-shell, or extensively repaired one would be key in your proposed purchase, though the latter maybe acceptable, it would I'd suggest, take something away from it's value. There are of course all the other parts on the car too, but these can all be swapped and found elsewhere or come from a rusted Cooper.

[Cooperman]

One will never know whether the shell is the original one it left the factory with.

The Mk.1 shells are all virtually identical and there is no unique identifying feature.

A genuine original 'S', if re-shelled into another correct period shell, will not be any different from the original. A 'fake', however, where a Mk.1 850 has been turned into a replica, may well have small differences, like, for example, the boot board brackets or the gear lever hole lip which would give it away.

I always think the worst thing is a so-called 'S; which has a non-'S' 1275 engine or incorrect brakes or a non-'S' interior trim package.

[Spider]

One will never know whether the shell is the original one it left the factory with.

The Mk.1 shells are all virtually identical and there is no unique identifying feature.

A genuine original 'S', if re-shelled into another correct period shell, will not be any different from the original. A 'fake', however, where a Mk.1 850 has been turned into a replica, may well have small differences, like, for example, the boot board brackets or the gear lever hole lip which would give it away.

I always think the worst thing is a so-called 'S; which has a non-'S' 1275 engine or incorrect brakes or a non-'S' interior trim package.

 

That's interesting and thanks for posting that up. I don't know a lot about 'particulars' where it comes to UK Cars.

 

Our Aust built Cooper S Body Shells do have a few unique identifying items to them, ie, the sloping bracket for the bonnet support panel, the mounts for the oil cooler, the bracketing for the 2nd fuel tank (all ours had twin tanks from the start), boot board clips etc. I don't know them all, but there are a large number of them. There's also a few unique numbers stamped in to various parts of the shell as well, in particular, the firewall, just below the windscreen and the rain gutter (though all Aust minis did have these, the numbers identify the model). It would be possible I think for some who was determined to put all these in to a mortal model, but to do so in an undetectable manner would be very hard indeed.

[Cooperman]

If a fairly new Mk.1 Cooper or Cooper 'S' had a big accident early in its life and needed a new shell, the shell was just a part number to be ordered from a BMC dealer by the authorised repairer. There was no 'Cooper 'S' shell. The repairer had to transfer the various parts from the damaged shell, For example, the front panel diagonal support was cut off and welded into the new shell. The extra fuel tank fittings were originally part of a kit which could be bought as a package from BMC. In 1966 the twin tanks became standard on the 1275 'S'.

The oil cooler as mounted on the front panel was never standard and a kit was available, again from BMC dealers against a BMC part number.

The boot board brackets could be bought as could the boot board. They were also just BMC part numbers.

Once a crashed 'S', or even a 998 Cooper, had been repaired by an insurance company approved repairer, there was really no-way that a re-shell was detectable, not that anyone was particularly bothered. If I had crashed my 6-month old Cooper 'S' and my insurer decided to re-shell it why would I care. Re-shelling was so easy back then as the electronics systems were not an issue and it was a quick & simple job to transfer everything into a new shell.

I think it is impossible to define what is a genuine or a non-genuine Cooper or Cooper 'S' if it has the correct engine, running gear and trim.

What one needs to be careful of is a Mk.1 with  Metro 1275 engine, 8.4" brakes and an incorrect interior trim, but with an apparently correct V5 registration document.

 

What I would do if buying an early 'S', is first of all to check the V5 for the numbers and listed engine. Then I would confirm the engine as a real 'S' block. After that I would check the other 'S' parts, which we have mentioned, as being correctly fitted. But even then the car could be genuine and not quite appear so. For example, if it had needed a new front panel and wings, the front panel might have the vertical support channel. If it had needed a new boot lid surround and rear floor, the boot board brackets might not now be fitted, or might be fitted incorrectly.

After over 50 years there is just no way to know for sure.

[nicklouse]

provenance  is the word that is needed in these cases.

[pdaykin]

Being a 67 there are potentially more clues on its originality - although my 67 registered car doesn't have them all as it was just on the cusp of the changeover.

The most obvious is the bulkhead is different to earlier shells as it was prepped to take a mk2 binnacle. I think this changed late 66 early 67. I seem to recall the shape of the inner windscreen panel at the top also changed about this time too.

In the boot, the clips for the vent pipe from the right hand tank should be spot welded - early shells didn't have them welded on. A 67 'S should have an oil cooler attached to the front, brake servo and regulator fixed near to the bulkhead (unlike other models).

there are lots of clues in finding a 'S shell if it is an original vehicle - eg cut outs on the floor cross member to clear the gear linkage bolts. But many will have been lost quite innocently during the many fixes it will have had. Mine has been restored twice as well as having been raced in the past so could be picked apart by an 'expert' despite being genuine. Even the roof skin is new.

Then there are deliberate 'fakes' - some are amazing with attention to detail I wish I had on mine. So as said before, history is really the key. It is also why some cars seem to go for good money and some don't.

If you can get pictures it would help. If you can I suggest
1. Front bulkhead near speedo and on drivers side to show regulator and fuse box positions/fixings
2. Within boot area showing right hand side of seat back rest and underneath the parcel shelf
3. Floor area showing cut out for gearstick.

Pm me if you like

Edited by pdaykin, 04 September 2017 - 11:28 AM.