12 replies to this topic

[MontpellierVanMan]

Nice to be back, hope I've not been black-balled.

 

I've been absent for three years or so, van finished, no issues, I'm sure I've missed all sorts of excitements.

 

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Prompted to post a few pictures after I realised the front ride-heights had dropped a bit.

 

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It turns out that the knuckles supplied on the Moulton Smooth-A-Ride set-up I bought from Somerfords in 2012 (first driven post-restoration in 2016) have failed spectacularly, to the extent that the parallel top-hat sections have popped out of the top arms, leaving pulversised bits of seating mixed in the grease, and the steel balls running directly in the top arm sockets.

 

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Same on both front ones, haven't dared look at the rears yet.

 

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The car has done less than 5.000 miles (of easy driving) since these parts were fitted.

 

I've owned and personally maintained this 1978 Van since 1981, doing over 150.000 miles before I restored it - and I never had an issue with knuckle joints, I would guess I changed them every ten years.

 

I'm puzzled about what to replace them with.

 

MiniSpares list GSJ1118 originals at £15.85 each, but their own "EVO" version which they claim is superior, at only £5.40 ?

 

I was actually examining the front hub swivels when I came across the knuckle issues, and here I've discovered similar problems.

 

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This will be the third time I've re-shimmed the top hub swivels in less than 5.000 miles - I'm used to a second adjustment once the initial bedding-in has been done, but the play I've found this time is accompanied by wear to all the parts, to the extent that there is the beginning of a knife-edge around the top bell-cap orifice.

 

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These swivel joints were new from Somerford in 2012.

 

I wrote at length here a few years ago a résumé of the appalling quality issues we were all facing

 

http://www.theminifo...rvice/?hl=+crap

 

- where the terms "incompetent", "dishonest", "rubbish-parts", "rubbish-service" still ring true, and indeed neither Somerford nor Swift will ever see a penny of my business again.

 

It is, of course, completely impossible to retail quality hub-swivels for £9.36 inc VAT per pair, as MiniSpares (and everyone else) does for example, but are we really only left with ordering stuff from Japan, as per the interesting exchange that is going on here ?

 

http://www.theminifo...ball-joint-kit/

 

I'm reluctant to go down that route as their extra height will do funny things to the Bump Steer corrections that have been so wonderful, and that I don't want to modify ..........

 

http://www.theminifo...mp#entry3421110

 

I would happily pay five times that £9.36 for the same original quality I used between 1981 and 2000, which might not have been perfect but which lasted orders of magnitude longer than the crap I'm now faced with replacing.

 

If anyone can suggest other alternatives to the hub-swivels, and comment on the choice of knuckles we have, I'm all ears.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GraemeC]

The knuckle joints - the vents look blocked.

So installing the plastic cups with plenty of grease you create a pressurised air pocket under the cup which, in extremis, can push cup back out and leave space for the ball to punch through it.

[IronmanG]

Nice to hear someone being 100% transparent about suppliers

[Compdoc]

"I'm reluctant to go down that route as their extra height will do funny things to the Bump Steer corrections that have been so wonderful, and that I don't want to modify .........."

Moke Spider has had some experience of the Japanese maintenance free ball joints and AFAIK has never mentioned a problem with bump steer, so it would be worth getting his take on this.

[KTS]

Seems very wrong that knuckle has a flat section on the bottom.  

[Quinlan minor]

"I'm reluctant to go down that route as their extra height will do funny things to the Bump Steer corrections that have been so wonderful, and that I don't want to modify .........."

Moke Spider has had some experience of the Japanese maintenance free ball joints and AFAIK has never mentioned a problem with bump steer, so it would be worth getting his take on this.

Mokespider's quote on the Japanese Ball joint thread:

"However, if you are thinking that these Maintenance Free Joints have a different Ball Roll Center, they are the same as those of a stock Mini Joint."

 

Looking at a photograph is no substitute for dimensional information.

 

Extended logic based on an impression gained from a photograph is spurious.

 

[Spider]

Hey nice to see you back here

 

I trust you've been well.

 

 

Now down to tin-tacks.

 

I've been using genuine TRW Knuckle Joints (who made them for BMC / Leyland / Rover) and can't fault them. I've also used replacement cups from Mini Spares, also without issue. The Moulton branded stuff I've noticed isn't very good quality.

 

Looking at your arms, the base of the socket (that takes the knuckle joint) is really well rounded out. Respectfully, that would have occurred over many more than 5 000 miles. With the base rounded out, there's no support for the cups and they usually wear through quite quickly, as the pressure isn't distributed over the cup but a few lines. I have built up these sometimes with one of the liquid metal materials, with success. Mix up a little, put that in the socket, then grease the outside of the Cup before fitting. The best fix here though, is replacement arms.

 

What you've found with the non-genuine ball joints has been pretty much my experience of those I've fitted to my traveling companion's Mokes. We are finding that at every Oil Change (5 000 km), they are having to replace their upper Ball Joints and the lowers every second Oil Change. If you put a file to them, you'll find they are soft.

 

I've sold on a few sets of the Japanese Maintenance Free Joints. I haven't actually fitted or tried these myself, but closely looking on with interest. They really do seem very good quality and I'm reasonably sure they will be up to the task.

 

I have fitted up a set of 'OEM (Japanese) Ball Joints' to another friends car. I found these to be quite different from all else that's presently on offer, and seemed at least as good (if not better) than OEM Joints. They have a fine ground finish, so, like the originals, don't require lapping in. They well passed the file test, with it scatting over the balls and the cup. Fitted up, they felt right to me.

 

It's only early days for both of these just yet, but, they both seem promising.

[MontpellierVanMan]

I'm in touch with David in Japan and will almost certainly go down the "Self-Contained" ball-joint route, from what I can ascertain there is very little (2mm ?) difference in the height of the cones, although this is not a straightforward thing to compare as it depends where the tapers sit in the upper and lower arms etc ............ but worth a punt.

 

The idea that trapped air-pressure has stopped the nylon cups sealing was presumably originally posted on April 1st.

 

As regards the condition of the upper arm sockets being responsible for the failure, I think this is incorrect as in the 40 years I owned the car I never had a ball wear through the nylon cup, and so the wear you can see in the picture is definitely the result of the 5.000 mile usage since these parts were new.

 

Furthermore, I can now see that the rear seats (not yet dismantled) are cracked and are being ejected from the swing-arms.

 

All four failing at the same distance.

 

The Unipart stuff I would have used between 1980 and 2000 had the cups made from a grey plastic that was incredibly tough, to the extent that you could grip an edge with a Mole wrench and lever on the wrench with a screwdriver when trying to extract the sleeve with its seating.

 

The crap on these ones with the Moulton kit is more suited to a child's toy.

 

I wonder if the Japanese make these too ?

Edited by MontpellierVanMan, 05 May 2020 - 03:52 PM.

[nicklouse]

The Moulton stuff is just MiniSport stuff rebadged.

But it looks like you will need to redo the seats so new top arms may be needed unless you go down the chemical metal fix.

[IronmanG]

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[MontpellierVanMan]

Thanks for that, are they "self-contained" in that they are just fastened to the hub by the bell-cap thread, or is there still a clamping of some inner seating (white in the photos) against the area on the hub where our original lower cup was located ? Intruiged as to how these function.

[IronmanG]

Pass. There is another ongoing post about the same problem and I emailed then on friday to ask he sent me this picture this morning and this email

Having not lived in the UK for the last 16yrs, I'm not up to speed on the ins-and-outs of VAT. Based on feedback from previous buyers, some pay, some don't.


One thing to look into is to see if the UK is still part of the EU/Japan free trade agreement until December this year when the UK finally departs. Based on the EU/Japan free trade treaty, I hear VAT can be waived if it includes the original invoice from me signed and stamped with my companies 13-digit corporate number. I supply these currently to all EU purchases.


Re dimensions, I haven't listed these on my website yet, but attached is an image of a Japanese made high quality OEM original ball joint [¥10,780 for a set of 2] compared to the maintenance free ball joint. The difference is only marginal at a few millimeters [maintenance free] more.


The last image is of a report in a local magazine here of a car that did 40,000kms in the last 2.5yrs, with no faults noted

[62S]

The Unipart stuff I would have used between 1980 and 2000 had the cups made from a grey plastic that was incredibly tough, to the extent that you could grip an edge with a Mole wrench and lever on the wrench with a screwdriver when trying to extract the sleeve with its seating.

The crap on these ones with the Moulton kit is more suited to a child's toy.

This why branded new old stock parts go for such good money on eBay.