32 replies to this topic

[mab01uk]

Poll: UK road pricing – yes or no?

The Engineer - In this week’s poll we’re asking whether readers think a “pay by the mile” model should be used to generate the tax revenues that will be lost through the switch to zero carbon motoring.

https://www.theengin...k-road-pricing/

Edited by mab01uk, 17 November 2020 - 03:38 PM.

[sonscar]

I am not against electric cars but the "zero carbon" myth really upsets me.Steve..

[MarkR]

In Norway, around 50% of new car sales are electric, in addition to that comes plug in hybrids. The government here plans to stop fossil fuel car sales by 2025. To those that say it won't happen, be assured - It will. It's just a question of when.

[surfblue]

Are we realistically thinking that by 2030 all new car sales will be fully electric? Or is it going to be every car has to be at least hybrid diesel/petrol electric? I could just about stomach a phev and a limited electric range with a proper engine for longer journeys. Just can't get my head round this country going all electric in 9 years time and everyone believing the pledge that we will be carbon neutral ?

[leyland73]

Are we realistically thinking that by 2030 all new car sales will be fully electric? Or is it going to be every car has to be at least hybrid diesel/petrol electric? I could just about stomach a phev and a limited electric range with a proper engine for longer journeys. Just can't get my head round this country going all electric in 9 years time and everyone believing the pledge that we will be carbon neutral

I can see the cafe at the bottom of the Glenshane pass being very busy with folks heading to stroke city from Belfast all trying to recharge. 9 years to provide a x20 increase in charging points, and let’s not worry about the electricity required to charge all these cars, or the mining of the rare elements for the batteries, or the fact that independent motor factors and garages will be squeezed out of the market with electric cars needing ‘dealer’ servicing...... no plugs, hoses, filters, oils, waterpumps, radiators etc. Very little for a motor factors to sell to an owner of an electric vehicle.

I know it’s the future but I enjoy living in the past with our great wee cars.

[surfblue]

 

Are we realistically thinking that by 2030 all new car sales will be fully electric? Or is it going to be every car has to be at least hybrid diesel/petrol electric? I could just about stomach a phev and a limited electric range with a proper engine for longer journeys. Just can't get my head round this country going all electric in 9 years time and everyone believing the pledge that we will be carbon neutral

I can see the cafe at the bottom of the Glenshane pass being very busy with folks heading to stroke city from Belfast all trying to recharge. 9 years to provide a x20 increase in charging points, and let’s not worry about the electricity required to charge all these cars, or the mining of the rare elements for the batteries, or the fact that independent motor factors and garages will be squeezed out of the market with electric cars needing ‘dealer’ servicing...... no plugs, hoses, filters, oils, waterpumps, radiators etc. Very little for a motor factors to sell to an owner of an electric vehicle.

I know it’s the future but I enjoy living in the past with our great wee cars.

 

A run up the Glenshane would certainly take some life out of your battery!   Maybe it would self charge or regenerate coming back down it though?

Yes I'm the same, cant believe the age of the internal combustion engine is coming to an end. I dont envisage a time when I'll be without one or several, but cant see me getting excited about or tinkering with an electric car. My plans for retirement (which could roughly coincide with 2030, If I live to see it) involved lots of car and garage time. I'm going to have to get a V8 sooner rather than later to tick that off the bucket list while I still can!

They'll still be about obviously for many years after that, but will they be taxed off the road in fuel duty or road tax?

[MatthewsDad]

I do wonder where this will leave classic car values. I own my Mini to drive and enjoy it, not as an investment - it's my very own money pit. But I can see a point in the future where expensive classics could become more of a liability than an asset, with downwards pressure on value. Couple this with a declining interest in older classics in favour of young timers and things could get interesting.

[Cooperman]

Will vans still be ICE powered? If they will then this will solve the problem for those who tow trailers/caravans.
One option, if all-electric is mandated, might be to mount a diesel generator on/in your trailer. Maybe you could use 'red' diesel too! That would work as a range-extender.
I can't imagine pulling into a recharging station in a large electric car with a big glider trailer on the back.

[Ethel]

2030 all smelly petrol 'n dervs go. Hybrids allowed another 5yrs - least I think that's it.

Average age of a car in the UK is 8.2yrs. I'm not clever enough to do the maths on when that means petrol stations will be obsolete, 2040???

[hazpalmer14]

This is new cars, brand new cars. I just sold my 2004 mondeo to my sister in laws boyfriend as his clutch had gone. It has done over 200k miles and I expect it to go on for many more. I bought it for £400. I replaced it with a 2005 vw caravelle, a car we've always wanted. I couldn't afford a newer more expensive one so we bought one that fitted our budget and even then we had to get a loan to pay for it. I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and work colleagues who go to a dealership and spec a brand new car. It'll take years for these fully electric cars to trickle down in the 2nd hand car market. All of my cars have been £1000 and under apart from 2. Not everyone can afford the higher prices this electric vehicles sells for. And charging these vehicles I know the infrastructure needs to be there, but if my car is on empty 0 miles left I can fill it up in what 10-15mins pay for the fuel grab a coffee and have a range of 5-600miles can a electric car match that?

[mab01uk]

It'll take years for these fully electric cars to trickle down in the 2nd hand car market.

 

Like you I have never bought a new car, although most of the people I know do every 4 years or so without ever really owning the whole car outright in money terms. However I think that restrictions will be brought in to force the issue on getting rid of older ICE cars.....like those that are being introduced in cities like London and other European countries to price them off the road.

Edited by mab01uk, 20 November 2020 - 08:58 PM.

[Ethel]

This is new cars, brand new cars. I just sold my 2004 mondeo to my sister in laws boyfriend as his clutch had gone. It has done over 200k miles and I expect it to go on for many more. I bought it for £400. I replaced it with a 2005 vw caravelle, a car we've always wanted. I couldn't afford a newer more expensive one so we bought one that fitted our budget and even then we had to get a loan to pay for it. I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and work colleagues who go to a dealership and spec a brand new car. It'll take years for these fully electric cars to trickle down in the 2nd hand car market. All of my cars have been £1000 and under apart from 2. Not everyone can afford the higher prices this electric vehicles sells for. And charging these vehicles I know the infrastructure needs to be there, but if my car is on empty 0 miles left I can fill it up in what 10-15mins pay for the fuel grab a coffee and have a range of 5-600miles can a electric car match that?

 This is the nub of the issue that I'm not sure the gov't has grasped. It's not something that can just be laid at the door of the manufacturers.

 

At the very least new car buyers will have to take a bigger hit on resale value. Otherwise manufacturers will see a big drop off in sales, higher  impact of fixed costs on margins and a spiral of reduced sales. Meanwhile, we mortals, will have to keep a fleet of ever aging & more inefficient old bangers trundling on.

 

We can look at different models of ownership, but ultimately the cost of ownership has to be what it is. However you cut it up, cars will still have production & running costs and a service life.

[DomCr250]

It will happen whether we like it or not.

 

The no driveway thing is no different to believing that houses couldn't be heated with gas when everyone was using coal. Currently there are more EV charging locations in the UK than there are traditional filling stations and the network is growing at a remarkable rate, whereas traditional filling stations are on the decline.

 

The idea that all EVs are charged at home, driven around using the available range then charged again at home is a complete fallacy, many EVs are charged at the destination whether it's the supermarket or en-route at a motorway service area. It's those away from home locations that have the higher current availability for high speed charging. It's different than running a petrol or diesel, EV owners tend to plug their car in daily to top it up rather than waiting until "the tank's a quarter full", they can do it at work or home so it's not an inconvenience and no need to go out of their way.

 

The revolution is coming!

Glad to see you mentioned the EV charging points vrs petrol stations - its a great quote, but misses one major point, an EV station is just that, often a single charging point.  A petrol station has maybe 8 or even 12 pumps.

 

Best known EV Tesla .. you can only charge their cars at their stations ...opps, that's really supporting any future growth.

 

Charging at home?  You take the government grant to pay for a higher power charger.  The prerequisite is that you must have a Smart meter installed, this can detect when your charging a vehicle and thus gives the government the ability to charge fuel duty on the electricity supplied.

 

I've had fully electric cars (not impressed) and know someone who's had a model X for well over 2 years and loves it - however even nearly a £100K (and thats what it cost with the spec he ordered) car has it's limitations.

 

Until battery technology improves it's going to be difficult, and that's slow because most chemical companies are actually petrochemical companies and they have no desire to see a move away from fossil fuels.

 

Hydrogen maybe, Japan is trying to drive this and the infrastructure to support it. 

 

There is an Ex JLR engine designer that's invented a very efficient compressed air driven engine, it's only been used in motorcycles so far but in the South of France there's a micro car manufacture producing compressed air cars, so maybe that's a hope too.

 

I'm not being negative and I'm very supportive of any future developments, but they are a long way off.

[Ethel]

If we're not pumping or digging the fuel out of the ground, we have to manufacture it and it seems inevitable that will involve electricity. There's also an inherent truth in the fewer changes of state the energy goes through, the more efficient the system will be.

[Pete649]

A petrol station has maybe 8 or even 12 pumps.

 

And just based on one car per minute over a 12 hour period can accommodate 720 cars a day.