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Yet Another Spi Running Rich!


Best Answer R32Egor , 26 April 2022 - 01:00 PM

Hi All,

 

Update - TÜV Inspection Passed and have the Typenschein for the mini (paperwork that allows the car to be registered in Austria) after 1 year and approx €1000 spent  :-)  :-)  :-)

ECU appears to working fine with Lambda going into Closed loop all the time.

 

I have reset the ECU again and now its just a case of paying more money to get it registered (yet another tax) and then get some KM's under the wheels and see what happens.

Yesterday was the first real drive of about 30km that the mini has done in 1 year without running very rich.

 

Lets see but very happy at last.

 

I will stop this topic now and any other issues will create new topic.

Have learnt quite a bit about the SPI injection and running during this last year and thanks for all the help.

 

Hope to see some of you in Italy 2023.

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#1 R32Egor

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 02:20 PM

HI all,

 

My SPI has been running rich (dont know how long as i am sure this was before i purchased it).

 

Checked all normal stuff and confirmed running rich with black sooty spark plugs and emission problems -

 

CO2 around 5,Lambda 0.847, HC 451.

 

First -

 

Found the vacuum tubes were connected all wrong and old - replaced all tubes and connected correctly.

Air intake flap was tested and functions correctly.

 

Second -

 

Using App Rover MEMS Diagnostic was able to see the following -

 

Coolant temperature - Appears to be functioning correctly - temperature raises in the App and on the temperature gauge

 

Air temperature -did not change -replaced sensor - now changes -presumed fixed.

 

MAP - reading immediately goes to read around 35Kpa -i was not sure if this was working correctly so disconnected the tube at the ECU while running and the reading changed to around 97Kpa -which is around atmosphere - so i presume this is working correctly - If the reading 35Kpa at around 65 degs (coolant temp) is incorrect please let me know.

 

Lambda current - when start motor the reading does not fluctuate but gradually increases up to 910 and then does not move.

 

So i presume this Lambda sensor is not operating correctly? Does the reading as explained correspond to the rich running of the engine?

 

Does everything else look ok?

 

Thanks in advance.   



#2 humph

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 02:39 PM

This post may help https://www.theminif...ensor/?p=774150

Before rushing to change your lambda sensor do some electrical checks for power to the sensor. Broken wires in the loom behind the throttle body, in the area of the fuel trap, are not uncommon.

#3 R32Egor

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 02:39 PM

Reading Sprokets pinned posts the Lambda reading of 910(high) does not seem to correspond to running rich (it should be running very lean).

 

Now i am now confused :unsure:  :unsure:  



#4 humph

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 03:12 PM

I read it the other way, this line for example “ This gives a rich condition and the the sensor should read high volts”.

Try this test he suggests

If the voltage is stuck high, using a hose pipe clamp, gently pinch the fuel supply 'flexi' line (orange), momentaraly, until the engine can be herd to alter tone, too much and the engine will stall. This gives a lean condition and the sensor should read low volts. The lambda sensor is working correctly and the problem lies elsewhere. If the voltage stays high, the sensor may be faulty, or there may be another problem, such as a faulty lambda sensor heater relay.

#5 hunterg30

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 05:38 PM

Coolant temp should be around 88 change the thermostat or coolant temp sensor is knackered, waterways blocked up

Edited by hunterg30, 13 June 2021 - 05:42 PM.


#6 R32Egor

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 06:21 PM

I will try the test of pinching the fuel line as if running rich then voltage should be high and that's what's happening.
Then why is the ecu not cutting the fuel???🤔🤔

#7 R32Egor

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 06:22 PM

The temp reading 65 was in the middle of warm up and not fully at temperature 👍

#8 R32Egor

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Posted 14 June 2021 - 09:12 AM

I found this information from another post -

 

I found a previous thread that talked about a lambda sensor relay fault that meant the sensor was not being heated. When the car was at idle the sensor cooled down and gave a steady rich reading. When driven at speed the heat in the exhaust brought the sensor to life and the ECU leaned off the mix - could this be my problem?)

 

How long would the car need to be running after warm up (88degs water temp) for the Lambda sensor to work correctly without the heater of the sensor working?



#9 R32Egor

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Posted 15 June 2021 - 09:35 AM

OK did the test above and the lambda volt dropped and changed.
I noticed that if I kept the clamp on I could regulate the fuel to the point that the lambda voltage fluctuated up and down and I could actually see the fuel pulsing (I had the air filter off)
I them un clamped the fuel line and the lambda voltage slowly climbed back up to 910 and stayed there.
So I seems there is too much fuel pressure for the injector to control correctly??
I So what controls the pressure of the fuel?
Wrong injector? How to tell?
Please help - last major problem so I can get it registered and drive it before winter 👍👍

#10 sonscar

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Posted 15 June 2021 - 11:08 AM

Your deduction is not necessarily correct.The injector could be incorrect or faulty and the fuel pressure could be too high but you really need to measure it.Perhaps another fault is commanding more fuel?You could make things worse.I have no knowlege of injected Minis but all injection is basically the same(oh no it isnt is the cry)Steve..



#11 R32Egor

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Posted 15 June 2021 - 11:24 AM

Removed injector the part number is correct - Bosch 280 150 682 and looks fairly new.

#12 Pops_Guild

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Posted 15 June 2021 - 01:46 PM

The injector wont be new unless the previous owner found a miracle stash of new ones...they've been NLA for many, many years. You can buy replacement o-ring seals (PM me) which perish but generally speaking the injectors last pretty well unless the car has been unused for a while. 

 

The fuel pressure is managed by the built-in fuel pressure regulator which is in the hydraulic body, that's the same part of the assembly that the injector is fixed too. It's the square brass thing with 4 bolts, that is just south of the injector. This can't be replaced but for the same reason injectors fail (lack of use) they can break. If they do you have to find a 2nd hand replacement hydraulic body off a working SPi. 

 

It is possible that your woes are because of fuel pressure, anything is possible but I've never seen it cause rich running before, the ECU is very good at managing fuelling and there are aftermarket kits for fuel pressure adjustment, even with those the ECU wont run rich. That suggests to me that something is telling the ECU that it needs more fuel.

 

Regarding the Lambda, is looks like you've proven that it is working. The problem with running rich for a long time is that the Lambda can get damaged.

 

Some basic questions for you, problem solving SPi's is about details!

 

1) You've not stated what your rpm is for cold to hot running. What happens? Is the idle steady in both situations? Is it hunting? This info may give some important clues.

 

2) You say you've checked and changed the 4x vac pipes (and fuel trap?) but have you checked all the other vacuum related pipes?? As you look at the SPi throttle body you will see 3x rubber pipes off the TB. There is also the brake servo pipe and the purge valve pipes of the rail. All of these can deteriorate and cause issues which will affect the fuelling of the SPi. 

 

3) Are you absolutely sure the car is getting 88deg + ? If the car never reaches this magic number the ECU will continue to throw too much fuel in. Just because the temp is rising on the diag tool, doesn't mean the ECU will receive the message that it's reached 88deg. The earlier comment about flushing the coolant out and/or replacing the temp sender and/or thermostat is very valid.  The temp sender that sits on the underside of the inlet manifold is hugely important to a good running SPi. The inlet manifold gets sludged up really easily and that messes things up. The ECU trusts the temp sender completely, so if the sender lies, its a problem.

 

4) You mentioned replacing the air filter temp sensor. Did you reset the error codes after you did this? You must, until you do so the ECU will run in limp mode (and over fuel), it will not auto diagnose everything is ok, it needs to be told. Any sensor error will put your SPi in limp mode (over fuel). You need to have an error-free system before you are working from a datum.

 

5) Have you set up your accelerator cable position / lost motion gap? If not, you should. During this process the stepper motor position is initialised. Look in the Haynes manual or the Rover workshop manual (which is on this forum) for how to do this. An old stretched/corroded accelerator cable can cause idling and fuelling issues.

 

6) what year is your SPi? there were changes made over the years, ones made in 91/92 are different to late 92 onwards.

 

I can probably think of more questions but that'll do you for the minute :)

 

If your SPi hasn't been well maintained then there is very high chance that your issue an accumulation of a few things, some small, some big. 



#13 R32Egor

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Posted 15 June 2021 - 02:52 PM

Update with info before I saw above reply.
I can answer at least 1 of the questions -
3) yes I saw the magic number 88 degs in the diagnostic data and suddenly the lambda data came alive and appeared to fluctuate up and down. This seemed to be working for a while (more than 5 minds) and then the data increased steadily until 910 was reached again.
I then turned the car off and restarted and the lambda data appeared to be giving correct data for a while again then increased to 910 and stayed there.
4 - yes I reset any errors before starting or when they occur. I have no errors apart from the air temp error every time I disconnect it for testing. I now have a sensor connected to eliminate the error.
5 - I have already done this according to Haynes manual without diagnostic software.
6 - year is 1996 single connection ECU and No accelerator pedal switch.

1 and 2 i will have a look at but it was hunting at idle before vac tube change/check and accelerator cable motion lost link setup and hardly anything after

Thanks for the help😊

#14 R32Egor

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Posted 15 June 2021 - 03:05 PM

Another question should the MAP0 data change with rpm?

#15 R32Egor

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Posted 16 June 2021 - 07:29 AM

Hi all,

 

SO i have managed to work out how to show images (hopefully)

See images below showing screenshots of Dia data during warmup- not the coolant temperatures -I hope they are in order.

 

hYxRydo.jpg

 

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MRQFdWC.jpg

 

64K7QYl.jpg

 

b9njvMQ.jpg

 

tuFzZJB.jpg

 

During warmup the lambda sensor did not fluctuate at all again and even when the temp88 was reached the Lambda sensor did not come alive!! just stayed high.

 

Last thing i did yesterday after cooldown was check the sensors with Dia and engine not started and the Lambda reading was 435 (default reading check sensor)

 

This is the default reading it goes to when the sensor is not connected

see below this morning connected with no engine start.

 

lvkP4Q4.jpg

 

 

So it looks like for sure the lambda sensor is NOT working correctly but I cannot get it out to put a new one in.

Tested the new one connected but not in the exhaust and as Sproket said you need to ground it for a reading to be show (it reads low as it should do when out of the exhaust - high oxygen content)

BUT i have found the sensor does not get hot - swapped the relays and still no joy.

 

If anybody can see anything from the screenshots let me know please. I think that the lose motion link accerlator cable needs redoing and maybe the stepper motor setup but I presume that there is not much point in doing this until all sensors operate correctly.

 

Anyway all help is appreciated :techsupport:






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