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#46 Lplus

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Posted 17 April 2024 - 05:52 PM

 

 

 

 

With the Yellow band types, the rears are normally connected to the lower port.

 

 

I have a yellow band, drums, and the lower cylinder is connected to the fronts. It was always like that since that MC was fitted by a garage of dubious competence in the early 90s. The lower half of the master cylinder does look like it has a wider bore (as Ethel mentioned). If I connect them the other way around, will I get a higher mechanical advantage on the front brakes? But this is probably not something I want as pedal travel is the more limited resource.

 

 

However I note Spider says "normally"; are there cases when this is not true?????

 

As a straight forward set up, yes, the lower port on the Yellow Tag Master would connect to the Rear Brakes, as Ethel and Mad4 has mentioned.

 

The part of the Cylinder that the Lower Port uses has a larger diameter (from memory 19.00 mm), so this will displace more fluid but be at a lower pressure that the upper port (the cylinder here from memory is 17.00 mm). By having a Master Cylinder configured (and connected) in this way, it reduces the pedal travel while getting enough pressure for the front brakes to operate satisfactorily.

 

OK I have tried this, and the results are as predicted, but quite dramatic. Connected up the wrong way around, as they were on my car since 1992, the pedal tends to move alarmingly far without doing anything (as all the travel from the narrower bore part of the cylinder just goes to the rears). Then it feels like it's practically hit the floor, but you are now operating the front brakes, which are lower travel and higher effort than they should be. I always pumped the pedal a bit, both to get some confidence that it wasn't going to hit the floor, and to get my foot where I wanted it for "heel and toe" (I like the brake above the throttle). Once you have got it pumped up you have a very firm pedal and you have to push it quite hard. Ultimately of course the brakes work fine and as well as they were ever going to.

 

With them connected up the correct way round, the pedal has a much more natural and progressive feel. You just press it and the car slows down, and will lock the wheels if you want, just like any other car. It's quite light by comparison but with more travel. It also seems to be harder to get a higher pedal with pumping. Not sure why this is, perhaps because pumping (which has to be done quite quickly) tends to work more on the first part of the MC because it's nearer. I appreciate that this pumping business is a bit weird and a quirk of my driving style (in this car). But it worked for me.

 

Anyway it is now harder to heel and toe, so I may actually change them back, but will see how I get on, and am experimenting with other solutions. Just putting a bit of plywood under the carpet seems to work quite well-- my requirement is just to keep my actual heel on the floor at all times. I know some people can heel-and-toe with actually lifting their heel off the floor, which helps with a lower brake pedal, but I think you get much better control if you keep it on the floor. Or maybe I'm just lame.

 

Thank you to Spider, Minimad, Ethel and everyone else. This has solved the mystery of why the brakes always seemed so strange!

 

They sound as if they were positively dangerous before.  I'd not be going back to that setup however hard it makes heel and toe the correct way round.
 



#47 Spider

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Posted 17 April 2024 - 06:02 PM

 I appreciate that this pumping business is a bit weird and a quirk of my driving style (in this car). But it worked for me

 

 

What Brakes have you got up front ?



#48 stuart bowes

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Posted 17 April 2024 - 06:03 PM

I'm sure heel toe is not entirely necessary though really is it, you can probably just adapt to a slightly different style, I always found blipping the throttle on downshift more than sufficient to satisfy my antisocial driving thrills

 

having the plumbing the right way around sounds far more important



#49 Spider

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Posted 17 April 2024 - 07:09 PM

 

 I appreciate that this pumping business is a bit weird and a quirk of my driving style (in this car). But it worked for me

 

 

What Brakes have you got up front ?

 

 

Also, have you tried locking off the flexi-lines one at a time and then in pairs to see if that improves matters. It'll help show where the issue is.

What you are experiencing here is not normal and personally, I'd find it and fix it.



#50 mbolt998

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Posted 17 April 2024 - 09:21 PM

 

 I appreciate that this pumping business is a bit weird and a quirk of my driving style (in this car). But it worked for me

 

 

What Brakes have you got up front ?

 

Standard drums all round (1979 Mini 1000)



#51 Spider

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Posted 18 April 2024 - 04:10 AM

 

 

 I appreciate that this pumping business is a bit weird and a quirk of my driving style (in this car). But it worked for me

 

 

What Brakes have you got up front ?

 

Standard drums all round (1979 Mini 1000)

 

 

Ah, OK, thanks.

You are aware there's 2 adjusters on each wheel on the front (so, 4 on the front + 2 on the back) ?



#52 mbolt998

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Posted 18 April 2024 - 07:30 AM

 

Thank you to Spider, Minimad, Ethel and everyone else. This has solved the mystery of why the brakes always seemed so strange!

 

They sound as if they were positively dangerous before.  I'd not be going back to that setup however hard it makes heel and toe the correct way round.
 

 

I don't think they were dangerous-- it was ultimately just a different pedal feel. But I did sometimes wonder if there was some fault I hadn't understood. They feel much more natural now.



#53 mbolt998

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Posted 18 April 2024 - 07:43 AM

 

 

 

 I appreciate that this pumping business is a bit weird and a quirk of my driving style (in this car). But it worked for me

 

 

What Brakes have you got up front ?

 

Standard drums all round (1979 Mini 1000)

 

 

Ah, OK, thanks.

You are aware there's 2 adjusters on each wheel on the front (so, 4 on the front + 2 on the back) ?

 

 

Yes of course, and the pedal travel does improve when they are all well adjusted. But under heavy braking they will tend to expand a bit as well.

 

Since recommissioning the car I cleaned and greased all the adjusters, replaced all the pipes, flexible hoses and wheel cylinders, the front drums, and all the shoes. The car felt just as it always had (with the circuits the wrong way round). Which was usable, but weird. It always passed MOTs although sometimes needed the adjusters adjusting before the test (but this is not unexpected).

 

But it still felt kind of odd so I always wondered if something was wrong. Which I think it was: the circuits the wrong way round. I don't think there's anything wrong with it now. But I'm always open to possibilities. The only hydraulic components I haven't changed are the MC (which was a "new" yellow tag one in 1992) and the brake force limiter thing (I have the kind that's bolted onto the bulkhead under the bonnet). Would those make any difference? If there was anything wrong with the MC seals, I figure you wouldn't be able to get a hard pedal. But you can. The brake force thing is basically working-- the rears don't lock and I seem to have a good brake balance if I do an emergency stop.

 

I considered a change to front disks when I recommissioned it, but now I'm pretty much sold on originality and my own nostalgia. I'd also forgotten how the drums really aren't that bad, and I'm not tearing around in it at as fast as I used to back in the day. Because the car has only four gears (so you slow quite rapidly as soon as you lift off), you usually don't get up to more than 60 in the first place, and the cornering is so good, you really don't need to hammer the brakes much as you do in newer cars.



#54 mbolt998

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Posted 18 April 2024 - 07:47 AM

I'm sure heel toe is not entirely necessary though really is it, you can probably just adapt to a slightly different style, I always found blipping the throttle on downshift more than sufficient to satisfy my antisocial driving thrills

 

having the plumbing the right way around sounds far more important

Yes not really necessary, but for me part of the fun. But you're right I think it's just a case of getting used to it and maybe adding some little mods here and there (the bit of wood under the carpet already works quite well).



#55 Spider

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Posted 18 April 2024 - 09:31 AM

Drum brakes do work and stop well - but - they need very regular maintenance to keep them that way. They certainly give a lighter pedal for the same stopping over non-servo discs.

 

When adjusting them, they do need to have a small bit of drag on them to keep them at the best 'pedal', it's also important with the fronts to turn the adjusters in the direction of forward wheel rotation, otherwise, they back themselves off fairly quickly.

 

Just check too that the Clevis Pin (on the top of the pedal) is in place. When I was working on the commercially, I'd see one about every month with a poor pedal, all down to the pin being missing.

 

I'd also suggest checking the drums for taper (noted you've fitted new ones) and also that the backing plats are flat and not bent.

 

Try locking off the brakes, one wheel at a time and then in sets, to narrow down which brake(s) is the cause of the low pedal. There's commercially available tools for this that are very inexpensive.



#56 mbolt998

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Posted 18 April 2024 - 06:30 PM

Drum brakes do work and stop well - but - they need very regular maintenance to keep them that way. They certainly give a lighter pedal for the same stopping over non-servo discs.
 
When adjusting them, they do need to have a small bit of drag on them to keep them at the best 'pedal', it's also important with the fronts to turn the adjusters in the direction of forward wheel rotation, otherwise, they back themselves off fairly quickly.
 
Just check too that the Clevis Pin (on the top of the pedal) is in place. When I was working on the commercially, I'd see one about every month with a poor pedal, all down to the pin being missing.
 
I'd also suggest checking the drums for taper (noted you've fitted new ones) and also that the backing plats are flat and not bent.
 
Try locking off the brakes, one wheel at a time and then in sets, to narrow down which brake(s) is the cause of the low pedal. There's commercially available tools for this that are very inexpensive.


Great tips thank you! I'm not sure the pedal is especially low but I might change the rear drums as I have some new ones anyway. Yes I think I have been turning the front adjusters in the direction of travel.

I might also try bleeding it again just to be sure (although I have already done that twice).

As for locking off the brakes you mean hydraulically? I could actually try this just with folded over bits of brake pipe in unions. Means bleeding it every time but bleeding is very easy (I have an EZ bleed).

#57 Spider

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Posted 18 April 2024 - 07:57 PM

 

Try locking off the brakes, one wheel at a time and then in sets, to narrow down which brake(s) is the cause of the low pedal. There's commercially available tools for this that are very inexpensive.



As for locking off the brakes you mean hydraulically? I could actually try this just with folded over bits of brake pipe in unions. Means bleeding it every time but bleeding is very easy (I have an EZ bleed).

 

 

For this job, this is my favourite tool of choice;-

 

bNaHunT.jpg

 

These are used on the Flex Lines, but only ever use them on rubber hoses, not braided types. There's many versions available, including plastic ones, that work OK on thin wall vacuum tubes and the like, but not too good on heavy reinforced lines like Brake hoses. the particular type I like I can use single handed.

 

By isolating the brakes one at a time, it might help steer you towards a brake set that needs a closer look.

 

These tools are also super handy when working on the Brakes for things like Cylinder replacement as you can lock off the hose and swap out cylinders without making a huge mess.

 

You've also mentioned the Master Cylinder and Regulator. These maybe the issue but that you say you can get a solid pedal and that they are not leaking tends to make me think they are OK - that's not a guarantee though !

 



#58 mbolt998

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Posted 19 April 2024 - 07:57 AM

 

 

Try locking off the brakes, one wheel at a time and then in sets, to narrow down which brake(s) is the cause of the low pedal. There's commercially available tools for this that are very inexpensive.


As for locking off the brakes you mean hydraulically? I could actually try this just with folded over bits of brake pipe in unions. Means bleeding it every time but bleeding is very easy (I have an EZ bleed).

 

 

For this job, this is my favourite tool of choice;-

 

bNaHunT.jpg

 

These are used on the Flex Lines, but only ever use them on rubber hoses, not braided types. There's many versions available, including plastic ones, that work OK on thin wall vacuum tubes and the like, but not too good on heavy reinforced lines like Brake hoses. the particular type I like I can use single handed.

an get a solid pedal and that they are not leaking tends to make me think they are OK - that's not a guarantee though !

 

 

Ah interesting, didn't realize you could just clamp the hoses! I actually made a similar tool recently for finding a mains water leak in the pipe going into my house. I could even use this but it's a bit bulky. I think the key idea is to clamp the thing between two basically cylindrical objects with no sharp edges.

 

Had a look at what I think is the clevis pin last night. It looks fine. There's only a very small amount of dead travel, like maybe a few mm, before it starts pushing on the cylinder, and it's about the same as the clutch pedal.

 

Attached File  clamp.jpg   34.59K   0 downloads



#59 stuart bowes

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Posted 19 April 2024 - 08:26 AM

just on that topic of loose clevis pin / cylinder piston slack to pedal

 

it's not inconceivable that the pin can wear and cause looseness, or in my case (on the clutch pedal but the effect is the same) the actual hole in the pedal widens

 

I actually had to weld up the hole and redrill for a nice tight fit:

 

051.jpg

 

052.jpg

 

054.jpg

 

055.jpg

 

after that of course it did also get a new pin

 

this is just in case someone reads in future and is looking for sources of extra pedal travel without braking or clutch effect



#60 Spider

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Posted 19 April 2024 - 09:43 AM

Nice work Stuart !






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