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Engine Bottom Re-Surface


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#1 gaspen

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Posted 14 April 2024 - 01:40 PM

Hello

 

It is a 850 block with STD size journals (measured with micrometer)  and new STD size bearings fitted. Plastic gauge shows 0.038 mm running clearance.

 

I just put in the crank but as I tighten the main bearing bolts I can not turn the crank. 

 

What I noticed on inspection is that the surface where the bearing caps sit has some pitting, I guess because of corrosion.

 

Using a ruler I can easily insert a 0.05 mm feeler gauge but the 0.1mm won't slide in.

 

The top of the block is already skimmed (as well as the head)

 

I guess the bottom surface should be re-skimmed and the bearing should be line-bored also but I don't know if it is allowed.

 

How much material could be removed without issues ?

 

Attached File  20240414_130022.jpg   45.46K   2 downloads



#2 nicklouse

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Posted 14 April 2024 - 03:16 PM

Yep resurface  and a line bore.

 

as to how much is too much I can’t answer.



#3 Spider

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Posted 14 April 2024 - 06:49 PM

I doubt this will be the issue with your crank locking up. The Mains to Bearing Clearances are very small - 0.0006 to 0.0026" / 0.015 to 0.066 mm - and it doesn't take much to up-set these. Everything needs to be super clean, I really can't stress that enough. Clean, then clean again, then clean again, then wipe over with paper towel & paint thinners and you are getting close to how clean it needs to be.

I'll list some checks here, but this is not an exhaustive list.

 

When you say you've 'tightened up' the bolts on the Main's Caps, was that just spanner tight or tightened to torque ? They need to be torqued up to take up the right shape.

Assemble the caps back on the block, without the shells, torque up the bolts (lightly oil the threads of the bolts). Here you need to check the diameter of the tunnels - it's a bit tricky as there's oilways there you need to avoid with your measuring tools and you'll need to measure each one in a few places to check for roundness. These should be 1.8960 to 1.8965" / 48.158 to 48.171 mm.

 

Check the backs of the bearing shells that they are super duper clean. If you have your old bearing shells, a loose ball bearing and a micrometer, measure the thickness of them. Start off measuring the diameter of the ball bearing, then place the ball bearing on the inside of the shell. Using the Micrometer measure over the bearing shell and the ball bearing, subtract the diameter of the ball from that figure and that's the shell thickness. Standard size 850 shells are 0.0719" or 1.826 mm thick.

 

Re-assemble the shells back in to the block and caps, check where you have slid then in that they haven't shaved in the edge over which they were slid in to place, clean that off if there's a small bit of shaving, then without the crank, torque them all up, then release only 1 bolt on each cap. This should open a small gap between the Cap Face and the Block. You should be able to get a feeler gauge in here. There should be a 0.003 to 0.008" / 0.075 to 0.20 mm gap. This is the bearing crush. This is what stops the bearing shell from spinning in the block.

 

Take that apart, then re-assemble it with the crank, but leave 1 set of shells out and leave that cap off and the crank thrusts. Check that the crank spins and then on the journal where you have left the cap off, measure with your DTI for crank wobble. This will show up if the crank is bent. If everything to this point checks out. Do these checks again, but try it with another set of missing bearing shells - this will show you which set is binding and which set you need to look at closer.

Check to that it's not binding up on the thrusts.

 

I'll add here too, that it usually take me around 4 - 6 hours to fit a crank in the block and that's if there's no issues to rectify !



#4 gaspen

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 04:37 AM

Thanks Spider

 

Yes I tightened the bolts as Haynes says : 63lb/ft

 

After my post I measured the tunnels (without the bearing shells) with a bore dial gauge. Of course I tightened the bolts to the spec. The measure capacity of the gauge is very near to the tunnels diameter so I was able to measure the roundness now. It shows about  0.05 - 0.08 mm ovality at all three caps.

 

And with the caps in place and torqued bolts I still can insert the 0.05 mm feeler gauge beetween the block and cap.



#5 gaspen

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 05:11 AM

Here is a short video that i made before dismanling the engine. It turned easily, i don't think the crank is bent but i will check
https://photos.app.g...uvGcsDnNQMAdaN9

#6 Spider

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 07:01 AM

,,,,,,, It shows about  0.05 - 0.08 mm ovality at all three caps.

 

Wow ! OK, it is what it is.

Check everything else all the same, assume nothing.

The other thing I'll add here is you could end up investing a lot in to this engine and being an 850, is it really worth it ?
 



#7 gaspen

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 08:24 AM

The other thing I'll add here is you could end up investing a lot in to this engine and being an 850, is it really worth it ?

 

NO !   :D  She is an early Mk3 from 1971 and I would like to save it from hobby. 

 

The block were already rebored to 1st oversize, I have new pistons and the head were refurbished also (new valve guides, lead-free valve seats and so on) 

 

Also I will install timing chain tensioner from A+

 

The basic question here : if everything else is fine could I re-skim X mm from the bottom AND line-bore the tunnels with X mm upwards also ? 

 

X wouldn't be more than 0,1 mm 


Edited by gaspen, 15 April 2024 - 08:35 AM.


#8 Spider

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 09:56 AM

The basic question here : if everything else is fine could I re-skim X mm from the bottom AND line-bore the tunnels with X mm upwards also ? 

 

X wouldn't be more than 0,1 mm 

 

Usually only 2 - 4 thou is all that's ground off the sump rails / lower deck and a similar amount from the caps, but it'll be what ever is needed to clean it all up.
 



#9 gaspen

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 10:41 AM

 

The basic question here : if everything else is fine could I re-skim X mm from the bottom AND line-bore the tunnels with X mm upwards also ? 

 

X wouldn't be more than 0,1 mm 

 

Usually only 2 - 4 thou is all that's ground off the sump rails / lower deck and a similar amount from the caps, but it'll be what ever is needed to clean it all up.
 

 

 

Sorry I am a metric guy : 2-4 thou = .002 - .004" ?



#10 Spider

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 11:15 AM

Sorry I am a metric guy : 2-4 thou = .002 - .004" ?

 

In 'new money' it's;-

 

0.002" = 0.058 mm
0.004" = 0.116 mm

'thou' is slang for a thousandth of an inch or 0.001"

While I can work in both metric and imperial, these engines and the cars too were designed in imperial (inches). I find working on them using that system makes much more sense.
 



#11 Designer

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 05:00 PM

Hi Spider you said above:-        This will show up if the crank is bent.

 

 

Purely out of interest a simple question from a simple mind. What would be the cause or causes of a bent crank?

 

Paddy

 

 



#12 gaspen

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 06:36 PM

 

Sorry I am a metric guy : 2-4 thou = .002 - .004" ?

 

In 'new money' it's;-

 

0.002" = 0.058 mm
0.004" = 0.116 mm

'thou' is slang for a thousandth of an inch or 0.001"

While I can work in both metric and imperial, these engines and the cars too were designed in imperial (inches). I find working on them using that system makes much more sense.
 

 

 

Yes I see but I won't bring the engine to the machine shop with imperial sizes in a metric country  ;D

 

I will check the engine with my new learning

 

Thanks for your effort and response



#13 Spider

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Posted 15 April 2024 - 07:41 PM

Hi Spider you said above:-        This will show up if the crank is bent.

 

 

Purely out of interest a simple question from a simple mind. What would be the cause or causes of a bent crank?

 

Paddy

 

Hey Paddy,

 

A few causes I am aware of here.

 

Some Cranks are made by casting and some (like those in the Mini) are forged. Both these processes leave stresses in the crank, that will pull or push the material, in a certain way. They are largely relived of these stresses as part of the very early manufacturing process but inevitably, there's still some left in them. Over time, with heat and vibration, they can still relieve and in doing so, change shape. Occasionally, re-grinding a crank and remove some of these stresses too, likewise wedging or other machining done here. 99 times out of 100, when a Nitririded crank is re-ground, it'll end up with a bend.

 

Dropping them can bend them >_<

 

In use, if they are driven for extended periods at or near their resonate frequency with a poorly match damper can cause a bend or twist.

 

Welding them as part of a repair to reclaim a crank.

 

Bends I've found are usually small, less than 0.001" but given that the clearances can be less than that, then even these small numbers are a problem.

 

A bend in the crank isn't the end of the world either. They can be straightened by a few means, but it's best to understand exactly where the bend in the crank actually is and what's the root cause of that bend before jumping in to correct it. Sometimes the tool of choice here is the press and sometimes a lump hammer and a rounded off chisel is used. It's best done by someone who's very experienced with Cranks. In straightening them, it's important not only to get the crank on it's own running true, but also the flywheel mount, in our case, that's the taper in the end of the crank.
 



#14 Designer

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Posted 16 April 2024 - 04:18 AM

Hi Spider,

 

Thank you for replying to my question I am now a little bit wiser. Fingers crossed that does not happen to Moop's crankshaft.

 

Paddy



#15 gaspen

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Posted 16 April 2024 - 02:10 PM

I guess it isn't good news https://photos.app.g...PxoubKvgayWCZh8




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