28 replies to this topic

[mab01uk]

could it not also be said that without 'ideas men' like Issigonis, Jack daniels would probably be sitting there designing "3 box" cars forever?

 

I've never heard of him which probably just reinforces what you're saying really, if you google 'jack daniels mini' all you get is small drinks bottles (although he does have a small wiki page linked from the main mini page)

 

It's a shame when it happens..  there's probably endless examples of the same throughout history .. Edison / Tesla ... Turing / Babbage .. Bell / Marconi... numerous women who worked out scientific principles for some man to come along and take the glory.. etc

 

Lots of info and background posted on Jack Daniels in the TMF Archive which may be of interest in the link below.

 

The Development of The Mini - Jack Daniels (1993) :-

https://www.theminif...k-daniels-1993/

Edited by mab01uk, 02 May 2024 - 11:17 AM.

[Designer]

Learn something new every day. I had never heard of the Austin Gypsy.

Yes the Austin Champ as used by the British Army back in the fifties/sixties.

[DeadSquare]

Both I think plus transverse engine.

Hmmn, no, that wasn't really new.  Transverse had been done before.

 

In the summer of 1945, my father drove home from Germany in a 'car' that he had "liberated" a couple of months before the end of the war.

 

It wasn't until I became interested in cars, about 5 years later, when the wooden body had rotted away and we used to drive it round the fields, that I realised that it was front wheel drive drive, and that the starting handle went in at the side, not the front, because the engine was fitted sideways, ie: Transverse.

 

I remember clouds of smoke, from its 2 stroke engine, which my father jokingly said was OK because it was over 16, the legal age to smoke cigarettes.

 

It was called a DKW, and because West Sussex County Council didn't know that in the 1930s, DKW made a car, they registered it as a  motorbike.

Edited by DeadSquare, 02 May 2024 - 04:25 PM.

[whistler]

 

Both I think plus transverse engine.

Hmmn, no, that wasn't really new.  Transverse had been done before.

 

In the summer of 1945, my father drove home from Germany in a 'car' that he had "liberated" a couple of months before the end of the war.

 

It wasn't until I became interested in cars, about 5 years later, when the wooden body had rotted away and we used to drive it round the fields, that I realised that it was front wheel drive drive, and that the starting handle went in at the side, not the front, because the engine was fitted sideways, ie: Transverse.

 

I remember clouds of smoke, from its 2 stroke engine, which my father jokingly said was OK because it was over 16, the legal age to smoke cigarettes.

 

It was called a DKW, and because West Sussex County Council didn't know that in the 1930s, DKW made a car, they registered it as a  motorbike.

 

Didn't know that. Of course DKW was incorporated in the Audi group in later life. I went on a Parts course with AUDI/NSU around 1970 in Swindon and was given the full history of Audi group  as background. The Audi 100LS was just released in the UK then and I worked for the agents here in Cardiff. 

[DeadSquare]

 

 

Both I think plus transverse engine.

Hmmn, no, that wasn't really new.  Transverse had been done before.

 

In the summer of 1945, my father drove home from Germany in a 'car' that he had "liberated" a couple of months before the end of the war.

 

It wasn't until I became interested in cars, about 5 years later, when the wooden body had rotted away and we used to drive it round the fields, that I realised that it was front wheel drive drive, and that the starting handle went in at the side, not the front, because the engine was fitted sideways, ie: Transverse.

 

I remember clouds of smoke, from its 2 stroke engine, which my father jokingly said was OK because it was over 16, the legal age to smoke cigarettes.

 

It was called a DKW, and because West Sussex County Council didn't know that in the 1930s, DKW made a car, they registered it as a  motorbike.

 

Didn't know that. Of course DKW was incorporated in the Audi group in later life. I went on a Parts course with AUDI/NSU around 1970 in Swindon and was given the full history of Audi group  as background. The Audi 100LS was just released in the UK then and I worked for the agents here in Cardiff. 

 

Ah, If you know the history, then you'll be able to settle a question.  Someone in the Motor Club was saying that DKW became the Trebant

[whistler]

 

 

 

Both I think plus transverse engine.

Hmmn, no, that wasn't really new.  Transverse had been done before.

 

In the summer of 1945, my father drove home from Germany in a 'car' that he had "liberated" a couple of months before the end of the war.

 

It wasn't until I became interested in cars, about 5 years later, when the wooden body had rotted away and we used to drive it round the fields, that I realised that it was front wheel drive drive, and that the starting handle went in at the side, not the front, because the engine was fitted sideways, ie: Transverse.

 

I remember clouds of smoke, from its 2 stroke engine, which my father jokingly said was OK because it was over 16, the legal age to smoke cigarettes.

 

It was called a DKW, and because West Sussex County Council didn't know that in the 1930s, DKW made a car, they registered it as a  motorbike.

 

Didn't know that. Of course DKW was incorporated in the Audi group in later life. I went on a Parts course with AUDI/NSU around 1970 in Swindon and was given the full history of Audi group  as background. The Audi 100LS was just released in the UK then and I worked for the agents here in Cardiff. 

 

Ah, If you know the history, then you'll be able to settle a question.  Someone in the Motor Club was saying that DKW became the Trebant

 

Don't know. Possible maybe because I think one of the DKW cars ran a 2 stroke engine which I think was  in a Trabant. Too long ago for accurate memory. I know we took on Audi but had to take on NSU as well, package deal. The RO80 was an innovation at the time. Only 3 speed box for the Wankel engine as it had tremendous torque. They couldn't stop it burning oil though. Owners put Ford V4 engines in as a replacement.

[Cooperman]

 

 

 

 

Both I think plus transverse engine.

Hmmn, no, that wasn't really new.  Transverse had been done before.

 

In the summer of 1945, my father drove home from Germany in a 'car' that he had "liberated" a couple of months before the end of the war.

 

It wasn't until I became interested in cars, about 5 years later, when the wooden body had rotted away and we used to drive it round the fields, that I realised that it was front wheel drive drive, and that the starting handle went in at the side, not the front, because the engine was fitted sideways, ie: Transverse.

 

I remember clouds of smoke, from its 2 stroke engine, which my father jokingly said was OK because it was over 16, the legal age to smoke cigarettes.

 

It was called a DKW, and because West Sussex County Council didn't know that in the 1930s, DKW made a car, they registered it as a  motorbike.

 

Didn't know that. Of course DKW was incorporated in the Audi group in later life. I went on a Parts course with AUDI/NSU around 1970 in Swindon and was given the full history of Audi group  as background. The Audi 100LS was just released in the UK then and I worked for the agents here in Cardiff. 

 

Ah, If you know the history, then you'll be able to settle a question.  Someone in the Motor Club was saying that DKW became the Trebant

 

Don't know. Possible maybe because I think one of the DKW cars ran a 2 stroke engine which I think was  in a Trabant. Too long ago for accurate memory. I know we took on Audi but had to take on NSU as well, package deal. The RO80 was an innovation at the time. Only 3 speed box for the Wankel engine as it had tremendous torque. They couldn't stop it burning oil though. Owners put Ford V4 engines in as a replacement.

 

From Wikipedia in relation to the Trabant:

 

VEB Sachsenring Automobilwerke Zwickau had its origins in the former Auto Union/DKW business which had operated out of the site prior to the war, and the company's first products were essentially copies of pre-war DKW designs. Following the partition of Germany, Auto Union re-established itself in West Germany (ultimately evolving into Audi), leaving VEB Sachsenring with the two stroke engine inherited from DKW.

[mab01uk]

"DKW built hundreds of thousands of FWD cars using a transverse engine, starting with this 1931 “Front” F1 below."

 

"DKW’s rather advanced F9 prototype transverse engine/gearbox from 1939."

 

The 1959 Mini Did Not Have The First Transverse FWD Engine

 

https://www.curbside...d-transmission/

 

 

[DeadSquare]

Thank you for finding that interesting information about earlier transverse engines and their related gearbox.  It seems that Sir Alec Issigonis was the first to put the gears in the sump.

[Spider]

I think the 'Revolutionary' thing was an advertising line that BMC spun to grab attention.

 

While it's clear from many great posts in this thread that there's little about the Mini that was 'new' and 'revolutionary', though perhaps the suspension design was at they time. In my view, having reverse engineered much of it and examined some of the drawings and factory info on it, it sure is a work of genius.

 

There's also one 'unsung' person in the Mini Story who usually only gets a fleeting mention at most, but who without, there would have never been a Mini. This guy;-

 

[greenwheels]

I think the 'Revolutionary' thing was an advertising line that BMC spun to grab attention.

 

While it's clear from many great posts in this thread that there's little about the Mini that was 'new' and 'revolutionary', though perhaps the suspension design was at they time. In my view, having reverse engineered much of it and examined some of the drawings and factory info on it, it sure is a work of genius.

 

There's also one 'unsung' person in the Mini Story who usually only gets a fleeting mention at most, but who without, there would have never been a Mini. This guy;-

It was the right car at the right time.

[Spider]

It was the right car at the right time.

 

Mmmmm,,,, was it ?

Remember, when they first went on sale, they were a flop in the market, few people would buy them. I think they were around for about a year - 18 months before sales caught on. I think to many in the public, thought were just too revolutionary and given the many early issues, maybe they were justified in their thoughts ?

While it was no doubt the right car for the 60's it would also be the right car today, with higher populations, road saturation and lacking of parking. It's brilliantly timeless

[greenwheels]

 

It was the right car at the right time.

 

Mmmmm,,,, was it ?

Remember, when they first went on sale, they were a flop in the market, few people would buy them. I think they were around for about a year - 18 months before sales caught on. I think to many in the public, thought were just too revolutionary and given the many early issues, maybe they were justified in their thoughts ?

While it was no doubt the right car for the 60's it would also be the right car today, with higher populations, road saturation and lacking of parking. It's brilliantly timeless

 

Mmmmm   I prefer slow starter than flop. It's problem was it was so revolutionary and different to what people were used to. Mechanics were saying it was complicated!! My own mother said she wouldn't be seen dead in one, but when I got one a few years later she couldn't get in it quick enough and loved it!

[roblightbody]

The best thing to do, is to read contemporary road tests of the Mini and see what they were saying.

 

The full Autocar Archive is a thing of wonder for any car enthusiast, for example, can't recommend it highly enough, they have a number of road tests of Minis and Mini Coopers from the first few years of production which let you understand the cars in the context of the time, but they also have a summary piece up for their original Mini roadtest.

 

https://www.autocar....owback-thursday

 

“Throwing convention to the winds often produces freaks in the automobile world, but when done by a clever and imaginative designer, the result may be outstanding,” we said. “This is certainly the case with the Morris Mini-Minor, which was found to set new standards of comfort and road worthiness in the very small family car class.”

 

It is worth also looking at the alternative small, cheap cars that your average British family could be looking at in 1959, and how advanced (or not) they were.