9 replies to this topic

[gmb101]

Hi Guys - I've got a problem I can't seem to fix. I've read the FAQs and searched the many topics about clutches and starters, and read the Haynes manual to death. I was wondering if any of you guys could offer some suggestions.

I bought an MG metro engine which had been rebuilt by Robert Walker Engineering in Oxford and rebored to 1293. Its been fitted with a late Cooper head and had never been installed in a car or run. I took the head off the engine to reveal all brand new components. The engine tuns over easily by hand on the pulley. The compression has been measured at 10:1. The engine has a metro turbo clutch (which I'm assured was of the verto type). I have fitted the verto slave cylinder mounted diagonally on a bracket. The clutch works, and the engine can be rocked over in 4th gear. So, I have filled it with oil, ready for the big day and hooked everything up to it. I have the INERTIA type starter motor, which I am assured was on the early mg metro donar car. There is NO SOLENOID AT ALL, as I am assured that the 1961 morris mini minor (car I have installed the unit into) didn't have one, and in fact the wiring diagram in Haynes shows only a lead directly from the battery to the floor start switch, and one from the switch to the terminal on the starter motor.

Here is the problem - the engine will not turn on the starter with the plugs installed. I have:-

checked the earths
connected a large fully charged diesel battery directly to the engine earth strap and the terminal on the starter
tried 3 (yes 3) inertia starter motors
rocked the car in 4th (at which point it sometimes turns over once or twice slowly)
turned the car over without plugs (although very slowly) I can even stop the engine turning over by blocking the plug holes with my fingers
taken the dizzy cap off and tried it without that
tried the starters out of the car - they all spin up fine
tried it with the clutch inand out and even in gear

All this time the starter motor gets very hot, and is clearly trying to do something, but is jammed.

So I concluded I had the wrong starter motor, so I counted the teeth on the fly wheel (by the way tippex correction fluid is great for marking the teeth to stop you counting too far) and I have found I have 107 teeth - which should mean inertia starter shouldn't it?

So my questions are:

should i buy a brand new / reconditioned inertia starter?
should i try a solenoid? (will that make any difference?)
should i try a preengaged motor? (Keith Calver in Calver's Corner says it can be done if you space the motor away from the housing by 0.012 inches) but will result in a shortened life for the motor)
Have I missed something?


Seriously guys, any sugestions welcomed, and thanks in advance for your help.

Greg

Edited by gmb101, 30 May 2007 - 12:51 PM.

[m1n1]

interesting to read you are installing this in a moggie minor.

if you are using a verto clutch and slave cylinder, you must have the verto flywheel , and the verto flywheel uses the pre-engaged starter motor.

I have a starting button on my '53 landrover, power comes straight off the battery, into the switch, then to the starter. nice and simple no solenoids there and works extremley well. my advice is try and get hold of one from a breakers, shouldn't cost more than a tenner, then try that.

or your wiring to the starter may be faulty. use some jump leads and try turn it over directly on the starter terminal.

where are you by the way?

[Dan]

It's not a Minor, it's a Mini. Early Minis were called either Morris Mini Minor or Austin Mini Se7en.

The 107 tooth gear is indeed for an innertia starter. Minis used a Verto clutch and innertia starter for about 3 years so it's not an unusual combination.

Two things come to mind, if the ring gear has been swapped by a machine shop rather than being innertia originally then it could have been put on backwards. The teeth are profiled on one side for the starter pinion to engage with. In extreme cases of the resulting tooth jamming that happens when the gear is reversed it could stall the starter completely I suppose. Either that or the Bendix is damaged.

One last possibility would be an earth polarity problem (your car would have been born as positive earth I think, the engine and presumably starter is negative earth). Although I can't see how that would stall the motor, it would just turn the engine the wrong way..... I think. And I would assume you've addressed that anyway if it's even a problem, I'm not certain it would be. Or maybe there's just no engine earth strap fitted at all!

[m1n1]

'that the 1961 morris mini minor (car I have installed the unit into)' OH YEA!

Edited by m1n1, 31 May 2007 - 08:16 AM.

[gmb101]

Thanks for your help so far guys, still struggling. the earth strap is there and the motor is turning the right way. There appears to be slight chamfers (although not hugely noticeable) on the teeth nearest the offside inner wing. Bendix seems fine at the moment. I'm wondering if the new motor is just really really tight and these three old starters just are too tired to turn it, I might try a new starter. Cheers for now
Greg

[Phaeton]

Can you tow it & bump start it? This will at least prove there's nothing wrong with the engine & that it's definately a starter problem?


Alan...

[gmb101]

Just wanted to finish this one off - Success!!!!! I tried everything over and over again.. and guess what? Every search I did somebody shouted bad earths and i thought, well I've tested the earths and bypassed them by connecting cables directly to the starter etc etc, but after no joy, I bought an new battery strap and connector and an additional earth strap. I cleaned the terminals on the battery with a dremel and cleaned the mounting points on th einner wings and boot floor till they were really shiny. I ran an extra earth cable to the bolt on the actual starter itself and when I pressed the starter button, it spun over really fast!!! So a big thankyou to all the people eho have shouted EARTH PROBLEMS

[gmb101]

Just wanted to finish this one off - Success!!!!! I tried everything over and over again.. and guess what? Every search I did somebody shouted bad earths and i thought, well I've tested the earths and bypassed them by connecting cables directly to the starter etc etc, but after no joy, I bought a new battery strap and connector and an additional earth strap. I cleaned the terminals on the battery with a dremel and cleaned the mounting points on thei nner wing and boot floor till they were really shiny. I ran an extra earth cable to the bolt on the actual starter itself and when I pressed the starter button, it spun over really fast!!! So a big thankyou to all the people who have shouted EARTH PROBLEMS on previous threads, I wouldn't have believed it was the problem - but it was!! Success!!

[Brett]

Just wanted to finish this one off - Success!!!!! I tried everything over and over again.. and guess what? Every search I did somebody shouted bad earths and i thought, well I've tested the earths and bypassed them by connecting cables directly to the starter etc etc, but after no joy, I bought a new battery strap and connector and an additional earth strap. I cleaned the terminals on the battery with a dremel and cleaned the mounting points on thei nner wing and boot floor till they were really shiny. I ran an extra earth cable to the bolt on the actual starter itself and when I pressed the starter button, it spun over really fast!!! So a big thankyou to all the people who have shouted EARTH PROBLEMS on previous threads, I wouldn't have believed it was the problem - but it was!! Success!!

lol a happy bunny, some times mine turns slow........just going to check my earth straps

[The Matt]

I'd say it could be an earth problem!