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Where To Get Hoses For Heated Inlet Manifold


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#16 Strontium Dog

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 10:12 PM

Sorry but I still disagree. Major motor manufacturers have emission constraints and production cost to consider above actual performance. That is why engine tuners exist. you wouldn't see so much as a bib bore exhaust :wub:

I have been involved in engineering all my life and I can assure you that the product that goes out is never the best it can be but a compromise usually back engineered to a cost. If the major players are so good then why buy an after market manifold at all? With the theory that the manufacturer knows best we'd never modify anything! Just take the head and porting on an A series for a point in example. Compare it to my Toyota head (designed by Yamaha with a pent roof) to see how far we have come and even that stands some improvement.

#17 Strontium Dog

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 10:06 AM

Hi Ethel, I perused a few books last night on this subject.

From my understanding the only time you might want a heated manifold is in the depths of winter when you might experience carb icing. I live in the west country so I don't see hard frosts let alone serious cold. Lol. The advantage to heating the manifold at the expense of a couple of hp is to atomise the fuel more fully. This will aid economy but NOT power OR torque. It would seem that the A Series likes a course fuel delivery which is why fuel injection is of little benefit save for emissions and economy. It does (according to Mr. Vizard) help to negate the port bias issues of the A Series engine but I would suggest that this is a minimal advantage and would make little difference.

In short, if it's power you want then don't heat, if it's economy you want then do heat! I suppose that with today's fuel prices there will be plenty of folk who will seek to increase economy if it doesn't sacrifice to much power and a couple of hp is hardly noticeable on the load pedal. Lol! Just remember that a hp here and a hp there can make all the difference when compounded.

Cheers, Si.

#18 Dan

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 10:37 AM

Oh yes and what part is a myth and which part is only half true?


The myths about heated inlets are that you only need them in the depths of the arctic and that it aids rapid engine warmup. The half truths are generally about the amount of power lost to it and how much heat is transferred to the charge. You are of course quite right that a denser charge has more potential for power and at something like 2.5% increased mass per degree cooler at atmospheric pressure there would seem to be a major benefit available but as ever it's not that simple. I see you've written about what people generally consider to be the carb icing effect. In fact this effect is caused by fuel condensation (actual carb icing is the throttle getting frozen open and the piston freezing) and that is why the walls of an alloy manifold should be warmer than the charge within. Over the few years I've been contributing to this forum we have had a great many members complaining about the fuel condensation problem, it is very common and not just in the arctic. The reason it is so common is the same as the reason that the minimal heat transferred to the charge passing through the manifold has little effect, unlike fuel injection carburation of the charge naturally refridgerates the charge by several tens of degrees. So the inlet is constantly being cooled by the charge and will become very very cold when there is gallons of external air being washed over it at high speed as well. Unlike many other cars the Mini has a vast amount of high pressure cold air being pushed in the front of it when travelling at speed. Fuel condensation also washes the bores clean of oil of course and drastically reduces the life of an engine. It's the shape of the manifold that causes most of the problem as it is quite convoluted. Twin carb manifolds aren't ever heated and don't need to be because they are straight. As you say, port robbing is a major problem with a single carb manifold.

Yes forced induction engines see a major benefit from intercooling but that is primarily to counteract the massive heating caused by the compression of the air.

The temperature of the charge really does nothing to aid engine warmup, as you say yourself a cooler charge has greater mass. More mass of air being compressed would produce more heat and more mass of charge ignited would release more heat. As a result a cooler charge would heat the engine up more quickly, not a warmer charge. People tend to think that the reason the intake uses a hot air oven as standard is also to aid warmup times and again this isn't true. It's used because a carb can't be made accurate across a very large range of inlet air temperatures.

The most important reason to heat it, and the reason that most people I've seen on here should heat in my opinion is regulation of the tuning. A heat regulated inlet manifold smoothes the tuning of the car and ensures there is always more or less the same volume of charge available to the engine. It keeps the engine in the same state of tune whatever the weather and based on the number of people who complain about rough running in winter or the car cutting out when you hit the clutch at a junction after a long run on the motorway or about many other tuning effects I would say that this is the most important thing to most of our members. Many people on here, and in general I believe are concerned primarily about reliability in their Mini and regulating the inlet is a very good way to keep the engine reliable under all conditions. The amount of power sacrificed to it is minimal and as I understand it you don't actually loose any torque, you just move the peak torque lower down the range (hence the power reduction) by heating.

My answer is probably only half truth as well, but then two halves makes a whole answer!

#19 Ethel

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 10:58 AM

It's still relative.

Water that heats a cold engine won't make much difference when the engine is hot and running flat out.

Yes cold air is more dense which means more air in the cylinders and a lower charge temperature means higher cylinder pressures can be reached without detonation. This will only be of benefit when the engine is running flat out. Road cars spend very little time running flat out, even when they are a slightly warmer induction charge won't make much difference unless they're tuned to the point where engine melt down is a possibility.

Injection is tricky on a 5 port A series because the injection 'windows' differ between the cylinders: the outer cylinders immediately follow the inners on each inlet port so have a third of the time to exclusively direct the flow.

#20 Strontium Dog

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 11:45 AM

I suppose that as I tune for reasonable power and live in a fairly mild climate the issues you are suggesting have relatively little effect on my engines. I find no idle problems unless running "hot" cams etc.

I also use a lot more of my engines potential than most drivers would even on the road let alone when competing or on a track. Reducing inlet temps is to a degree about reducing the chances of running into det which means you can get more ignition advance without breaking a piston. This is more a concern with forced induction ( I should know I just broke a piston in a 300bhp 2litre engine that should have been able to run 400 bhp+ on the internals before such a cataclysmic event! Oops!)

It all comes down to what you want out of your engine. I personally have never experienced carb icing on a car engine. I do allow a suitable warm up before hitting the load pedal hard though. It did happen to me on a mildly modded bike about 15 years ago and I will never forget the throttle sticking at wide open! Not much fun and neither was the half hour wait for it to defrost at the side of the motorway in freezing rain. Lol!

As to lots of air rushing through a mini's engine bay that just does not happen! There is no way for the air to get out properly and no ducting as standard to direct the flow where it would do the most good. Adequate cooling is a must for more serious power outputs and as a car engine is less than 20% efficient the rest of the energy produced is nearly all heat. The inlet is set above the exhaust and behind the engine in the most sheltered position it could be in. Not a good design at all. My GT4 has holes all over the place to get the heat out of the bay. It also has ducting to direct the air to where it is needed. I use heat rap on my exhausts inc. A Series to try to minimise engine bay temps and to reduce heat transfer to the carb in a mini.

But again I say, I am not looking for economy in particular. For those that are a different approach is no doubt desirable.

#21 mini93

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 12:03 PM

its been tested after i believe 15mph the ambient temperature is the same at the back of the engine as it is at the front, so obviously its allowing alot of air into the engine bay, alots being pushed out the rad side inner wing and through thte bottom of the car where the floor slopes downwards

#22 Ethel

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 12:50 PM

Poor Eriksher only asked about hoses sizes! :wub:

Directing air through the radiator is the main concern for Mini engine bay airflow. It would be an interesting experiment to see, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could actually get the engine temperature to increase by running without a bonnet.

I'm in general agreement with Dan but there are a few interesting points:

As the manifold is downstream of the carb and usually insulated from it, heating the manifold can't have much effect on carb temperature and icing.

Carbs meter fuel by air velocity, it's air density (mass) you need to control to keep the fuel ratio constant, admittedly it's very complex and all inter related but again heating the air down stream of the carb wouldn't greatly effect the fuel/air ratio. I think the main reason for heating the manifold is to stop fuel condensing on it and making a mess of the metering as it will make it in to the engine sooner or later.

For the amount of time the air spends in the inlet any heating effect will be piddling compared to that of being compressed in the cylinder. The same same mass of air squeezed in to a tenth of the space will have the same heat (energy) so the temperature must be about ten times higher. As Dan said, that's far greater than any heating of the manifold will achieve.

#23 Strontium Dog

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 01:22 PM

Poor Eriksher only asked about hoses sizes! :wub:

Directing air through the radiator is the main concern for Mini engine bay airflow. It would be an interesting experiment to see, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could actually get the engine temperature to increase by running without a bonnet.


For the amount of time the air spends in the inlet any heating effect will be piddling compared to that of being compressed in the cylinder. The same same mass of air squeezed in to a tenth of the space will have the same heat (energy) so the temperature must be about ten times higher. As Dan said, that's far greater than any heating of the manifold will achieve.


yes I completely agree with that first part. As I said ducting, not the removal of panels. Lol!

And round we go to the fact that there will be less oxygen in the charge to compress and get hot in the first place. It remains that charge temps have a bearing on hp as shown by the dyno. Det is much more crucial in a forced induction motor with a lot of advance. Unless you run methanol which opens a whole new can of worms. And effects the charge temps again! ( and no I have only run methanol/petrol on other engines so far so ????)

And while discussing this I have just bought a T3 so I'll be trying out the methanol sometime! But I digress! Lol

I can of course only offer my opinion based on my experience. And yes, poor Eriksher is now probably more confused than ever! Lol!

#24 eriksher

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 04:46 PM

I can of course only offer my opinion based on my experience. And yes, poor Eriksher is now probably more confused than ever! Lol!


no, actually it is really entertaining to read the thread what i started with my small innocent question :wub:

so can we come to the conclusion that heated inlet has more commercial value as additional "reason"to go for Stage1 than a practical thingy?

#25 Strontium Dog

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 06:29 PM

I can of course only offer my opinion based on my experience. And yes, poor Eriksher is now probably more confused than ever! Lol!


no, actually it is really entertaining to read the thread what i started with my small innocent question :wub:

so can we come to the conclusion that heated inlet has more commercial value as additional "reason"to go for Stage1 than a practical thingy?


Whatever your leanings about the heating issues there really should be some benefit in the new manifold due to increased flow and or higher port velocity. It is a practical upgrade if it is a decent bit of kit!

What make is the manifold?

#26 eriksher

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 10:09 PM

it is Minispares Stage1 kit and yes, i am happy with it.
my old exhaust was more rotten than Sex Pistols and kept falling off, so any exhaust was good already.
fuel consumpt. dropped 2L/100KM immediately, and there is nice pulling with 2nd and 3rd gears.

only worry is that i did not have ANY room between inlet and bulkhead so the carb went back in without spacer.
and i think because of that with cold engine it is close to impossible to go from stop. it is like drawning.
with warm engine everything is fine, no vibration on idle.

next will be 123electronic dizzy

#27 karl & his cooper

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 01:38 PM

it is Minispares Stage1 kit and yes, i am happy with it.
my old exhaust was more rotten than Sex Pistols and kept falling off, so any exhaust was good already.
fuel consumpt. dropped 2L/100KM immediately, and there is nice pulling with 2nd and 3rd gears.

only worry is that i did not have ANY room between inlet and bulkhead so the carb went back in without spacer.
and i think because of that with cold engine it is close to impossible to go from stop. it is like drawning.
with warm engine everything is fine, no vibration on idle.

next will be 123electronic dizzy


Where can I get the hoses? lol

#28 Ethel

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 01:50 PM

Any motor factors will have heater hose by the meter. Minis used 1/2inch but later ones and Metros use 5/8. Best to measure what you've got. Both are common pipe sizes 12 or 13mm and 15mm is close enough, you could find hose adapters all over the place.. plumbers, hydraulics etc

#29 Strontium Dog

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 10:31 PM

Do you have a new needle in the carb and have you checked the mixture? Even if you plumb in the manifold it will take a while to heat up and you should be able to drive off from cold regardless! Check for air leaks on the induction too.

#30 karl & his cooper

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 11:04 PM

Do you have a new needle in the carb and have you checked the mixture? Even if you plumb in the manifold it will take a while to heat up and you should be able to drive off from cold regardless! Check for air leaks on the induction too.



Phoebe runs really rough at 1st start, choke out with revs up on throttle and thrash it and after few mins choke off and fine!

new needle from the kit, tuned by ear by an ex indie car tuner




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