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Pro-motive R1 Questions


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#31 alexcrosse

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 01:19 PM

nah ive got quife diff

#32 rtg54

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 02:34 PM

anybody know of the differences in weight between one of these fully built subframes brakes and engine the lot against and a series one


An A-series motor/transmission weight approx 325lbs while an R1 engine/transmission weights about half that at approx 175lbs.

#33 rtg54

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 02:48 PM

As others have said it is difficult, if not impossible to compare a Z Cars kit to a Pro-Motive one. I think it's great that both kits exist and people have the choice. The Z Cars race spec conversion definitely adds more protection but the same amount of protection could be added to a Pro-Motive kit (or even a non-converted Mini for that matter).

Currently, I'm leaning towards the Pro-Motive kit so I can build a bit of a sleeper and then tackle a Z-Cars Monte Carlo Mini down the road. :xxx:

#34 z cars chris

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 09:55 PM

ive never read the bike engined forum until a couple of days ago when i was researching the current design rights issue we have with another company ripping off our bike engined kits
ive had a couple of nights browsing this side of the forum now and i would like to add my comments if thats ok
firstly the mini scene is a hotbed of real enthusiasts who all are absolutly mad on their cars
in my opinion you are lucky enough to have two good companies in the UK that have dedicated a fair amount of time and effort to put bike engines into minis
ive known darren grasby since he was about 5 yrs old he comes from a very nice family who i used to race against in the autograss world and as such i know he will be honourable in his dealings with anyone wanting to buy a kit from him
he has produced a good kit which seems to work well (ive never driven one myself but would love a go some time)
theres often an argument as to whats best and which way to go front or rear wheel drive etc etc
we used to get asked to build front wheel drive minis and ive always resisted the request i did have a 1400 cc tuned hayabusa autograss car myself which i raced four years ago this probably coloured my judgement as it was an animal to drive it would light the tyres up at 100 mph in 4th gear and took some driving
id always built rear wheel drive cars and knew that they put the power down better as they transfer weight to the driven wheels when you accelarate we have years of experiance in mid engined rear wheel drive race cars so it made sense to do what we know best
with this in mind we have concentrated on the mid engined versions and will continue to do so
a bike engined car is a pretty extreme thing with bags of go and a gearbox to die for
the choice of front wheel drive verses rear wheel drive is down to personal choice and the use you want to make of your mini when built
i always try to identify what the customer is wanting to do with their car when built and if they are after a regular driver for every day use usually point them in the direction of a car engined version, thats not to say i wouldnt use a bike engined car everyday myself but not everyone understands a bike engine and can manage the car engine better
i make no apologys for the cost of our kits as we have a fair bit more involved in the build of a roll cage front subframe rear suspension shocks all round exhaust system etc etc to take account of this obviously takes more time to fabricate and theres more costs involved in powdercoating as theres more framework involved
the promotive kit fills a need for front wheel drive bike engined minis and can be cheaper due to the simpler way it works its also easier to fit than ours as its essentially a subframe/engine swap
not everybody is happy building a big project like ours then again other customers just love big projects
we have just built two volvo turbo kits in an effort to try and develop a cheaper car engined kit
this is the same as our V tec honda kit but accepts the volvo 2 litre turbo engine (its a four cylinder version of the focus ST engine developed as a joint venture between ford and volvo)
the engie is a cracker developing 200 hp std with 250 easily available with a chip fitted
its as cheap as chips compared to the honda engine as everyone wants to use the v tec in lotus elise conversions and the like
a good honda now costs £2500 to £3000 it then needs ECU and loom at £1400 produces 200 to 235 bhp
the volvos are everywhere for about £1500 will run on std volvo ecu chip costs £400 so a considerable saving from the v tec
as far as i can see theres room enough for both promotive and Z Cars to exist together in the mini scene for years to come and give good service to those of ou that want to build a little car with charactor and some real performance
i can tell you that z cars hasnt stopped developing things for minis and will move with the times as much as we can
chris

#35 fwdr1mini

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 10:59 PM

well put chris and thanks for your comments, i like to think there is definitley room for us both, after all as you said they are 2 different types of car and we're even sharing customers who have got 1 of each :blink:. I've recently sent a couple of people in your direction.

yes youll have to have ago in 1 sometime.

Has it really been that long even i feel old now :D) nice family, ill tell mum and dad you said that lol.

all the best speak soon
Darren

#36 z cars chris

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 11:05 PM

well put chris and thanks for your comments, i like to think there is definitley room for us both, after all as you said they are 2 different types of car and we're even sharing customers who have got 1 of each :blink:. I've recently sent a couple of people in your direction.

yes youll have to have ago in 1 sometime.

Has it really been that long even i feel old now :D) nice family, ill tell mum and dad you said that lol.

all the best speak soon
Darren



#37 roofless

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 11:07 PM

ive known darren grasby since he was about 5 yrs old


he only looks about 15 now :D

#38 z cars chris

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 11:10 PM

me and your mum and dad go back a long way to the days when i was slim with black hair !!
i didnt realise there was a page full of stuff on the other bike engined minis out there im just so busy that i only go every now and then onto the Z Cars section to see whats going on ther
i will keep an eye on this one as well as theres bound to be questions i can help people with at times
did you see that A series fibreglass car we delivered at castle coombe the other week
even i liked that one and im not really a fan of the std mini motors
say hello to your folks for me
chris

#39 fwdr1mini

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 11:22 PM

thanks martin ill take that as a compliment lol.

ha ha it was a long time ago then, i dont remember that :D

i know what you mean i rarely get on here, unfortunatley we've not yet got our own bit but hey maybe in a few years if we're lucky. our customer list is growing :blink:

yeh i did get a quick look, it looked good is that the first a-series 1 youve done? i was busy messing with that noise test, didnt think it was possible but it is worse than the grass 1!


will do, we off racing on the tarmac tomorrow.

Darren

#40 alexcrosse

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 12:25 PM

i was busy messing with that noise test


We dont need to be reminded of that day daz!

#41 z cars chris

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:37 PM

that is the first fibreglass full spaceframe A series weve done im chuffed with it actually as it makes afair bit of sense to do one like that
you could go the whole hog and SVA test one for the road it would get a new reg if you fitted a cat and ran a fuel injection engine an 09 reg mini would be quite something especially as light as this one is
chris

#42 Monte Busa

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 06:53 PM

Wouldn't mind seeing pictures of that one Chris - sounds quite nice.

Good to see you on "the dark side" by the way!

Cheers,

Aric



that is the first fibreglass full spaceframe A series weve done im chuffed with it actually as it makes afair bit of sense to do one like that
you could go the whole hog and SVA test one for the road it would get a new reg if you fitted a cat and ran a fuel injection engine an 09 reg mini would be quite something especially as light as this one is
chris



#43 DDT Imports

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 08:34 AM

i would like to add to the r1 since there is miss conceptions.

i owned a 98 r1 and a 2004 r1. i used it as a daily and weekend warrior/track bike. both bikes had mods.

98 has more low end TRQ and good mid range HP.

2004 lag low end TRQ and came alive at 7500 rpm and pulled hard till redline.

Redline: 98 12,000 rpm vs 2004 14,000 rpm.

the 2004 engine is more of a RPM engine like a 600cc revvy bike. it needs revs to be happy.

as for the 98 u can start off as low as 3,000 rpm and it still can pull hard.

i like RPM but for a mini that is heavier i would prefer the 98 motor. i know the 2004 u would have to slip the clutch a lot or run some really low gearing ratio to compensate and that could hurt top speed.

98 would be good street car (shorter 1st gear). easier to drive from dead stop and slow speed. like city roads and back roads.

2004 for the track, it would be a monster at the track since each shift ur rpm wont drop below 8,000 rpm and yank till 14,000 rpm, SICK!

Edited by DDT Imports, 10 November 2008 - 09:29 AM.


#44 DDT Imports

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 08:50 AM

oh and on pro motive design, i would follow there suggestions and use a 98 carb or 2002 fuel injected version.

as stated before by chris from z cars. there is the chain issue. pro motive has a longer chain with tensioner. this lasts longer and is more reliable.

i seen other designs (engine sprocket close to rear sprocket with short chain). we had a test on 4 stroke go karts where the sprockets was close and used a short chain vs further apart with a longer chain. the short chain would fail in one race day. when i say fail i mean engine mounts cracking, chain stretch, sprockets worn. similar things will happen to a mini unless ur babying the car lol.

Edited by DDT Imports, 10 November 2008 - 08:55 AM.


#45 alexcrosse

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:08 PM

im sorry DDT but i dont belive you have been in a promotive mini gauging by the 2 posts. Im running a 4XV 98 motor which does have the shorter first gear which is FARRR from desirable, id like a longer one. Also, 1st gear isnt worth thinking about in another context because you cant put power down through it, itll just spin up, and does the chain no good in first because of the chain jumping (lots of power and little torque as it revs high in first with little load).

Also, my 4XV is on a standard ecu and revs way past 12k, 13 is redline i belive. Also, because you have to change the carb jetting on the carb models the rpm it pulls from is completely different to a road bike, if you get the jetting slightly out you wont get anything until 5k on carb models.

The weight of a mini doesnt effect much, and most of us promo guys are running kevlar plates and barnett spring conversion clutch plates, so slipping isnt a problem.

Never compare a bike to a car, an engine is an engine, and back to basics its a box with a shaft coming out, delivering (roughly) 80lbft and 150bhp... now thats alot of power, especially compared with a 30bhp 998 a series irrespective of what its in.

al




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