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Original Registration / Identity And Sva?


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#16 al_reidy

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 02:23 PM

The points system is the old system, now the ruling is that it can only keep the reg if an unaltered shell is used…..

However saying that the SVA is changing to the IVA this year so there will be a slight change to the regulations.


where are you getting this info on only the shell being unaltered?

thanks

#17 CharlieBrown

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 02:45 PM

From this topic:

http://www.theminifo...istration VOSA


Excert:

The rules on "Registering a rebuilt vehicle, kit car and kit conversion" is very simple...


http://www.direct.go...cle/DG_10014246


Vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new or used parts

In order to retain the original registration mark:

cars and car-derived vans must use:
The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt).

And two other major components from the original vehicle - ie suspension (front & back); steering assembly; axles (both); transmission or engine.

If a second-hand chassis or monocoque bodyshell is used, the vehicle must pass a an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA) or single vehicle approval (SVA) test after which a "Q" prefix registration number will be allocated.

#18 Jammy

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:05 PM

Charlie, it appears from the earlier email that there are two systems being used.

The one you are quoting is for vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new/used parts. The old points system seems to be still in place for radically altered vehicles (this covers vehicles which are substantially altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions).

#19 Ethel

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:34 PM

Charlie, it appears from the earlier email that there are two systems being used.

The one you are quoting is for vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new/used parts. The old points system seems to be still in place for radically altered vehicles (this covers vehicles which are substantially altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions).


I read that the same too, though whichever system you use doesn't seem to make much difference. I did Wonder what constitutes an axle on anything other than a Landrover or similar prehistoric design. Also seems odd that an unidentifiable £60 steering rack that has every chance of being replaced with an exchange unit rates double what an engine does.

It seems a strong argument that a Z car has a significantly modified body shell however.

#20 CharlieBrown

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:38 PM

Ah ok, cheers Jammy I thought all the points systems were now out of date. I stand corrected. It was a while since I looked at it last time.

#21 Jammy

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 10:07 PM

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that something from the DVLA or VOSA has been wrong! To be honest I think the best advice has already been given a few times. Check with your local MOT tester, DVLA office, and SVA test centre.

#22 al_reidy

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:57 PM

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that something from the DVLA or VOSA has been wrong! To be honest I think the best advice has already been given a few times. Check with your local MOT tester, DVLA office, and SVA test centre.


the dvla have sent me a v55/5 form to fill out and are going to arrange a home visit.

AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

#23 cptkirk

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:31 PM

V55 doesnt sound good as they are for new vehicles before they are registered.

May the power of the force be with you when they visit, maybe a few jedi mind tricks to get them say all is ok and no SVA required.

#24 Phaeton

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:55 PM

the dvla have sent me a v55/5 form to fill out and are going to arrange a home visit.

AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting as I was in the Leeds office picking up a V55/5 the other day & got to talk to the guy who does the inspections, he informed me that if I wanted it inspected I would have to take it to him as he was no longer allowed to do home visits.

On the subject of virtually anything other than the normal run of the mill tasks each DVLA local office appears to be able to interpret the rules themselves. You are best going into the local office with a brochure or details of the conversion & asking the specific person the question & then, if they will (doubt it though) asking them to put it in writing.

The whole thing is a very grey area, what defines radically altered? In my humble opinion a RWD Mini of any way shape or form should require an SVA, however if you change the front subframe & put in a Honda/Vauxhall engine, remove the doughnuts & put on coilovers, is that radically altered? Or you go one step further & after the engine & front suspension swap, you then remove the rear subframe & fit a beam. I don;t know the answer, just that it's a total mess at moment.

Alan...

#25 tommy13

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:44 PM

I have to say I dont know much about Z cars, only what I have seen at shows, but it is obvious that major parts of the bodywork are radically modified.
As an MOT tester there is no way I could issue an mot certificate for such a vehicle because of this principal reason for failure (from manual)
Deliberate modification which
significantly reduces the original strength, excessive corrosion, severe distortion, a fracture or an Inadequate repair of a load bearing member or its supporting structure or supporting panelling within 30cm of any sub-frame, spring or a suspension component mounting, that is, within a 'prescribed area', see Appendix C.
In the case quoted with the Land Rover the original test station would have registered the test on the MOT computer before they began the inpection underneath and realised it was heavily modified. A reason for aborting the test then has to be given on the computer, which can be read by VOSA at the other end. No one knows what they put and I doubt if they knew what the concequenses would be. In crushing the vehicle it would appear that VOSA were in agreement with their decision.

I have never been faced with a modified vehicle for test and nor has VOSA ever issued us with any guidelines on the matter. What I have said is based on my interpretation of what is written in the MOT manual. It would be useful to contact your local area VOSA office and speak to them. Any testing station should be able to supply the area office number.

Pretty well as Phaeton above, must type quicker

Edited by tommy13, 18 February 2009 - 10:51 PM.


#26 cptkirk

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 08:31 AM

Hi Guys

I am reading this with some trepidation as I need to get mine MOT'd at some point and dont want my car getting crushed nor do I want a Q plate.

I dont want to start a sh!t fight so please allow me voice my opinion and I in no way mean this personally to anyone writing on here, I am more peeved with the mess of the rules than anything else.

Tommy as an MOT tester maybe you can shed light on the subject - I fail to see how putting a zcars kit into a mini does any of the things that are in the above statement, maybe I am missing the point so please put me in the picture if I am. I have broken down the points in the statement below:

1) significantly reduces the original strength of the car - surely with the addition of the space frame/roll cage in the car the overall strength greatly exceeds that of the original car.

2) excessive corrosion - it doesnt cause corrosion and this would be more for the body panels as the spaceframe/rollcage would be new any way.

3) Severe Distortion - it doesnt do that, if anything it helps to not distort the original car.

4) A fracture or an inadequate repair of a load bearing member or its supporting structure or supporting panel within 30cm of any sub-frame, spring or suspension component mounting that is within a 'prescribed area' - Again I refer to my observation about the strength of the space frame going into the car that replaces many of the original parts with stronger, better solutions. This includes the original sub-frames both front and rear as it can't be argued that the new Zcars rear structure or front sub-frame are in any way 'an inadequate repair' as they wouldnt pass an SVA test in those cars that have been built with that very purpose in mind.

5) Appendix C - I dont have the ability to view this so cant comment.

I agree that the car is radically altered, there is absolutely no getting away from that, I dont see how it could fail an MOT an any of the things in the VOSA statement as this would surely mean that every Zcar, even with a new reg would never pass an MOT or am I really way off the mark here??

Again Tommy I am not arguing against you personally, so please dont take it that I am. Like it has been said earlier in the thread it is such a grey area that VOSA really need to update their rulings on such things or make them much more black and white across the whole organisation as it hardly seems fair that a person can go to one office and get an OK and another office wont allow it.

What does VOSA stand for again? - Very Obstructive Significantly Annoying?

Edited by cptkirk, 19 February 2009 - 08:35 AM.


#27 CharlieBrown

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:35 AM

Mr Kirk,

I was thinking the same as you when I read that. If anything the ZCars kit makes the mini alot stronger.

It does howerver in my humble opinion radically alter the vehicle so I can understand why there is confusion for MOT testers.

I am building a new fibreglass mini so from what I have read in the amature build I will have to go Q plate. But I dont really see whats so wrong with that.

And as has been said before several poeple have done the ZCars conversion MOTed it and passed so it seems that some MOT testers are ok with it??

Confused...

#28 Mini Type R

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 01:40 PM

I was originally planning to take mine up to Z-Cars for a final check and then take it to the same place they use for an MOT as they obviously don't have a problem with them, would my local VOSA have any knowledge or reason to get involved in this as you already have a registration document and MOT Pass certificate so you can get a tax disc, which sure;y makes it legal?

Alternatively, I have a local garage who are quite happy to do an MOT for me, if they pass it and the car is taxed is there anything that VOSA can do?

When I built my last car I only had to go through my local office as I needed them to issue me with a registration document, for which they required an SVA Pass.

#29 al_reidy

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 01:55 PM

i hope that i dont *yellow human water* people off if the local DVLA office (which is the correct place to see the car) deem it to need a Q plate.

from what i can gather from talking to a customer , who used to rally custom cars and needed the dvla to state it was road worthy, its down to the dvla guy who sees it and his interpretation of the rules. so in a way i might be able to convince him that of the points raised in this forum.
not that my car is in any way better than others but its different as i have replaced the front subframe with zcar's option. it might affect the outcome if the standard front subframe is kept.

im a little hacked off that im the only one thats done what seems to be the only legal way of getting this type of car on the road.

legally is probably not the correct term... road legal... maybe?

i just dont see why there we should all be risking so much "just MOT'ing it".

im still awaiting a responce from my v55/5 form attempt..... (i had no idea how to fill it in!)

#30 Phaeton

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:10 PM

I think some people are geting confused over VOSA (Vehicle & Operators Services Agency) & DVLA (Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency) & think they are the same, they are not they are two separate organisations that seem not to talk to each other. VOSA is about safety & DVLA is all about paperwork. I would always much prefer to deal with VOSA, most seem to have an engineering interest & common sense, DVLA however like shuffling paper & making things difficult to justify their existence.

VOSA do not decide if it needs SVA'ing they only perform the test on behalf of DVLA, the whole area is a complete mess & won't get any better. They are stopping accepting applications for SVA tests as of 28th February 2009 with all tests having to be completed by 28th April 2009. From 1st March 2009 all applications will have to be for IVA, however the manual has not been confirmed yet, the cost hasn't been confirmed yet, the test procedure hasn't been confirmed yet, even though some examiners have been on the training course. So people are still trying to build their cars to a standard that has not been agreed, there is talk of the IVA being put back 3 months.

Alan...




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