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Original Registration / Identity And Sva?


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#31 drayton min man

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 08:59 PM

Hi guys

This is my outlook on the subject, yet again not to upset anybody as DVLA do make it quite difficult to understand or get a uniform process in place.

Yes VOSA will SVA anything put in front of them but will not commit as to whether you require one or not if asked, but bear in mind for a SVA test your vehicle will pass with four illegal tyre's providing the E number and construction is correct, basically providing it conforms does not necessary mean its road legal or safe, lets face it some home built kit cars welding need something to be desired, but how is this strength tested?

As for a MOT test i would have no problem testing one (and thats not being biased) Ive been a tester for 25years and you test what is presented in front of you, lets face it you could have a 58 plate SVA compliant Zcar you would have to MOT that in three years, yet again lets remember just because it passes a MOT does not mean its road legal (its against the law to have an illegal spare, not part of the MOT)

I think we can all agree that they are heavily modified, i guess its just a personal choice or risk as to whether you leave it on its original reg or go for a SVA test and chance a new reg or end up with a Q plate :thumbsup:

Geoff

#32 pete

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:28 PM

SVA test booked for 24th march and if it passes then a DVLA inspection after that. Aiming for a new 09 reg. Will certainly be asking a few questions to try and get some definitive answers to this.

#33 roobarber

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 08:27 PM

What about crazy rally cars that have their engines where they should not be or are very different to how they left the factory? These all have MOTs and all i have seen keep there original reg plate... Metro 6R4...?!

I have noticed zcars are keeping clear of this thread? Why is this?
I would imagine all the zcars minis would be above board anyway as Chris is an ex-copper and im sure he has looked into it!

Mike.

#34 tommy13

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 10:46 PM

nor do I want a Q plate.

I dont want to start a sh!t fight so please allow me voice my opinion and I in no way mean this personally to anyone writing on here, I am more peeved with the mess of the rules than anything else.

Tommy as an MOT tester maybe you can shed light on the subject - I fail to see how putting a zcars kit into a mini does any of the things that are in the above statement, maybe I am missing the point so please put me in the picture if I am. I have broken down the points in the statement below:

1) significantly reduces the original strength of the car - surely with the addition of the space frame/roll cage in the car the overall strength greatly exceeds that of the original car.

2) excessive corrosion - it doesnt cause corrosion and this would be more for the body panels as the spaceframe/rollcage would be new any way.

3) Severe Distortion - it doesnt do that, if anything it helps to not distort the original car.

4) A fracture or an inadequate repair of a load bearing member or its supporting structure or supporting panel within 30cm of any sub-frame, spring or suspension component mounting that is within a 'prescribed area' - Again I refer to my observation about the strength of the space frame going into the car that replaces many of the original parts with stronger, better solutions. This includes the original sub-frames both front and rear as it can't be argued that the new Zcars rear structure or front sub-frame are in any way 'an inadequate repair' as they wouldnt pass an SVA test in those cars that have been built with that very purpose in mind.

5) Appendix C - I dont have the ability to view this so cant comment.

I agree that the car is radically altered, there is absolutely no getting away from that, I dont see how it could fail an MOT an any of the things in the VOSA statement as this would surely mean that every Zcar, even with a new reg would never pass an MOT or am I really way off the mark here??

Again Tommy I am not arguing against you personally, so please dont take it that I am. Like it has been said earlier in the thread it is such a grey area that VOSA really need to update their rulings on such things or make them much more black and white across the whole organisation as it hardly seems fair that a person can go to one office and get an OK and another office wont allow it.

What does VOSA stand for again? - Very Obstructive Significantly Annoying?




I knew my post would cause a reaction amongst testers and Z car builders alike, and I take no offence whatsoever to your reply.
You can ignore most of the statement I pasted out of the MOT manual, The significant bit is "significantly reduces the original strength of the car" with the emphasis on Original. In my opinion this is exactly what you have done in creating a Z car, and as Phaeton pointed out it also extends to people who hack away parts of the front subframe to fit non original engines and even flip fronts where the inner wings have been partially removed.
When you modify your car you put in extra bracing etc and it may well be stronger than original, but I am not in a position to calculate the stresses an strains involved and say whether your modifications are strong enough, and if I were, I wouldn't have spent half my life with sh!t, water and oil dripping on my head.
I know nothing of the SVA test but have imagined it would be carried out by qualified engineers who are capable of making such assessments, and if they say it's OK I could not object to giving it an MOT.
I did indicate in the original post that this is only my interpretation of what is written in the manual, and urged interested parties to contact their area VOSA office to get clarification. These are the people you would normally complain to if you disagreed with the outcome of an MOT, and since they sit in judgement over the likes of me ,they should be qualified to give a better answer. I would be as interested as everyone else to hear what they have to say.
I have to stand by what I said originally, I would hate to encourage modified car owners to take them to their local MOT station only for them to end up getting crushed. For anyone willing to give it a try I would suggest they enquire of the test station before submitting for a test, then if they refuse, at least they dont have your details to report to VOSA.

#35 cptkirk

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:13 AM

Tommy - knowledge is power and I think we are learning new & different things in this thread. Good reply.

#36 roobarber

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 10:19 AM

sorry but if you take this opinion then nearly all minis would need an sva. which is just daft!
i get your point, but any mini that has had a beam axle or fiber glass front fitted would need an sva? i dont think vosa would like to have to sva like 1/4 of all the minis on the road?!
as far as my MOT guy said, he would be happy to mot anything with modifications as long as it looks to be of high quality and passes all of the mot tests. he has failed many modified cars and reported some to vosa. With minis he has mainly failed modified ones because they have had play in the non original rose joints etc... he has reported a few minis with obviously home made subframes (front and rear). he has never failed or reported any zcars minis, he has 3 of them go to him. he has found them to be kept in very good condition.

#37 Neil_S

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 01:53 PM

Their seems to be a bit of panic over nothing here, I don't know the full story with the landrover being crushed, but I do know that VOSA can't just come to your house and take your car away based only on the opinion of an MOT inspector, if that was the case than the car industry probably wouldn’t be in the state it’s in.

If you are building your car to SVA standards, which you should be anyway, than you shouldn’t have a problem, I plan to just MOT mine but if I have to SVA it than so be , the points system is easy to negotiate if you know what you are doing, go to any kit car show and count the Q plates and you will see what I mean.

A lot of getting your car on the road is about paper work, fill it out correctly at least in the eyes of VOSA and the DVLA and you wont have a problem.

How many kits have Z cars sold to date and how may have had a problem ??

#38 kendoddsdadsdogsdead

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 07:27 AM

What if the car was modified pre sva? Surely VOSA/DVLA would have to prove when mods/conversion was done, if modified pre sva no need to do anything I believe?

#39 al_reidy

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 06:43 PM

What if the car was modified pre sva? Surely VOSA/DVLA would have to prove when mods/conversion was done, if modified pre sva no need to do anything I believe?


im not quite sure what your trying to say.
if the mods are massive then regardless of when they were done, for example if you bought a finished zcars mini without it having an sva, you take on the responsibility to get it SVA'd or properly checked for road legal modifications.
if you mod the car after an SVA there might be some wiggle room.
this whole subject is stressful, until the dvla say the correct path to take there is nothing we can do but assume...

#40 Phaeton

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 06:51 PM

this whole subject is stressful, until the dvla say the correct path to take there is nothing we can do but assume...


My experience is that different offices have different rules so it's not even possible to give or get a consistent answer.

Alan...

#41 kendoddsdadsdogsdead

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 07:13 PM

I mean if it was modded pre 2001 (is that when sva came in) . For example I used to own a Vauxhall Viva, heavily modded chassis and body, fitted with 3.5 V8...all work done 1995, no sva or inspection needed, just hange cc on log book insure and drive. If I did it today (heaven forbid) SVA or IVA would be needed? So if my mini was modded pre 2001...surely nothing needed and mot as normal

#42 Phaeton

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 07:22 PM

I mean if it was modded pre 2001 (is that when sva came in) . For example I used to own a Vauxhall Viva, heavily modded chassis and body, fitted with 3.5 V8...all work done 1995, no sva or inspection needed, just hange cc on log book insure and drive. If I did it today (heaven forbid) SVA or IVA would be needed? So if my mini was modded pre 2001...surely nothing needed and mot as normal


My argument here is that even today you would still not need an IVA/SVA as you were using the same chassis, the engine was in the same place driving the same wheels. However if you put the same V8 in the front of a Mini driving the rear wheels then it would.

Alan...

#43 al_reidy

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 08:27 AM

I mean if it was modded pre 2001 (is that when sva came in) . For example I used to own a Vauxhall Viva, heavily modded chassis and body, fitted with 3.5 V8...all work done 1995, no sva or inspection needed, just hange cc on log book insure and drive. If I did it today (heaven forbid) SVA or IVA would be needed? So if my mini was modded pre 2001...surely nothing needed and mot as normal


im guessing yeah no problem, but the mods would have had to be registered with the dvla before the date of sva introduction.

#44 Jammy

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 04:52 PM

SVA test booked for 24th march and if it passes then a DVLA inspection after that. Aiming for a new 09 reg. Will certainly be asking a few questions to try and get some definitive answers to this.

Is that the Minus you've been building? Good luck whichever vehicle it is!

I have noticed zcars are keeping clear of this thread? Why is this?
I would imagine all the zcars minis would be above board anyway as Chris is an ex-copper and im sure he has looked into it!

No matter which way you look at it, or how you class a Z Cars Mini (radically altered, rebuilt, etc) non of them retain enough original components to escape an SVA. See this link. The important thing is the wording.

#45 paulrockliffe

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 05:22 PM

Interesting thread, one thing thats not been picked up on yet is this thing about getting the ok off your local DVLA office, their decision seems to be based on a subjective opinion rather than hard fact. So you go that route, get the all-clear, MOT, go for a drive etc. Then a few weeks later you happen to dirve past one of VOSA's randome check points and get pulled in for a random check, not that unlikely given that your Z Car looks a bit more likely to be suspect than the Mundano infront of you. Suddenly you're faced with the subjective opinion of another minion who disagrees with your local chap that said you didn't need SVA and your Z is 99% on the way to the crusher and you have a long walk home!

I've read around this topic a fair bit on here and while it's obviously possible to get a Z Car on the road without SVA etc, I'm not sure it's a risk I'd take. When I took Jas503n to get MOT'd last year it was his first computer MOT, no problem I thought, then the MOT man put the VIN number in wrong and I got a letter from the DVLA that I thought was a pre-cursor to a VIC. There was no way I could prove that Jaa503n was built pre-SVA, though now I have his magazine feature he should be ok.

The other point is the thing about Q plates, not sure why there's any stigma attached to this, it's just another letter of the alphabet isn't it? If I wanted to buy one, I'd take a Q anyday as I know it's been properly registered and it won't ever get crushed under the circumstances I've outlined above.




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