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R1 Water Temperature


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#1 1stpromotive1275gt

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:06 PM

After a a few months of driving to shows and back and generally learning about how everything is totally differant to an A serise engine ive drawn my attention to my water system.

Now when I first got my car It used to use a fair amount of water on a run, after changing the rad cap for the stant one which made no differance I eventually narrowed it down (after worrying that the head gasket had gone but it hadnt ) to the thermostat not opening and making it pressure up. After changing this the pressure problem has gone and it does not use as much water as before but it still seems to run at around 100-104 degrees before the fan comes in. After speaking to a few people Ive now come to the conclusion that this is quite normal. But this brings me to my next problem.

As I have not a clue about bikes and how they work I am consistantly relying on other people for advice and help with regard to the questions like "Should it be doing that?" and the very popular "Is it meant to make that noise?"
Others with these pro-mo cars should know what im talking about :shifty:

Darrens been a great help but I hate to pester him all the time.

Anyway the last "expert in the field of bikes!" told me that the best operating temperature should be around the 80 degrees area and 100 was far too hot. So this got me thinking, as Im lucky enough to have a clubman with a bit more room at the front why not make the most of the spare room and fit another rad.
So out came the tools and thinking cap and I set to work fitting an mpi mini front rad and connecting it up to the existing one supplied with the car.
Im hoping that this will help keep temperatures down a little.

Has anyone else had any issues with running temperatures or on the other hand have I been totally mis informed and am worrying about nothing?

Edited by 1stpromotive1275gt, 09 May 2010 - 10:00 PM.


#2 alexcrosse

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:38 PM

driving around mine was normally at 90 degrees, but... as soon as i gave it propper beans it would go straight up to 120 or so.

i had my fan on a switch, and no thermostat...

i was assured running at temps of up to 125 was fine???

#3 ad53ggz

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:39 PM

driving around mine was normally at 90 degrees, but... as soon as i gave it propper beans it would go straight up to 120 or so.

i had my fan on a switch, and no thermostat...

i was assured running at temps of up to 125 was fine???


my tl the fan comes on at 120c so about 120-125 should be fine the the r1

#4 SukiDawg

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:40 PM

High performance engines run fine at up to 105 degC. Typical fan on/off temp is around 100/95... So long as its not leaking and running fine then its almost certainly nothign to worry about. Car engines run from 85degC to 100degC anyway...

One question - what kind of ambient temps we talking about here? Driving it to shows in the summer??

#5 1stpromotive1275gt

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:44 PM

driving around mine was normally at 90 degrees, but... as soon as i gave it propper beans it would go straight up to 120 or so.

i had my fan on a switch, and no thermostat...

i was assured running at temps of up to 125 was fine???


Interesting,

I was thinking about doing away with the thermostat, but did not know if it could be done as when you do it in an a serise you have to fit a sleeve and I would assume that this would be the same?
Im sure that my car says on the dash "HI" and a red warning light flashes when it gets to anything around 120. Maybe my dash was differant due to it being a 5jj dash and yours was a 4xv?
Anyway its good to know that its not unusual that the temp gets over 100.

#6 1stpromotive1275gt

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:49 PM

High performance engines run fine at up to 105 degC. Typical fan on/off temp is around 100/95... So long as its not leaking and running fine then its almost certainly nothign to worry about. Car engines run from 85degC to 100degC anyway...

One question - what kind of ambient temps we talking about here? Driving it to shows in the summer??


Good point,

Temps were varyed and so far the hottest day when I was driving around the m25 was last month on way back from enfield pagent. Was getting up to 108 at some points then when fan had done its job come back down to 100.
Sounds like Im being a tart and worrying too much.

#7 alexcrosse

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:50 PM

yer 120 and the light came on! amazing, lol.

id get your fan on a switch and run it constantly... i think it helps alot. or just try it and see if you get any difference!

think you might be worrying a bit though!

cheers,

al

p.s. dont be scared about grabbing me and saying hello at shows! would be good to see you again! (following on from the other topic a while ago)

#8 roofless

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:36 AM

mine runs a near constant 100 or so, and will go up to 120 easily.
we installed a new adjustable thermo switch to cut in at 90 and put a bypass switch in also for when its sat in traffic, that way we can have it running near constant if we need to.

touch wood though the new thermo switch ( simply inserts between the vanes in the radiator ) has been brilliant. Got it from merlin motorsport

http://www.merlinmot...oduct_info.html

#9 Monte Busa

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 04:31 PM

I've seen temps as high as 120C too, during the track day two weekends ago at an ambient temp of 25C or so - made no different with the hood off or no (I tried both ways). I run my (10") fan all the time, pushing into the wheelwell area, on a switch.

Upon exiting the track sessions the temps dropped quickly, to 115 or less within 30 seconds or so. I'm switching from a water-based glycol coolant (Engine Ice) to Evans NPG-R to see if I can calm things down a bit, but the more I read I think 120C on the R1 is not the end of the world.

Edited by Monte Busa, 10 June 2009 - 06:11 PM.


#10 SukiDawg

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 07:21 PM

120DegC is hotter than any engine designer would be happy with.... imho.

Also - its irrelevent what your cooling fluid is - work through the thermodynamics of it and you'll find the specific heat capacity of the working fluid cancels out of the equations. Its nearly all down to rad size vs. internal surface area of the engine, plus turbulence and other dynamic heat transfer effects.

Want a cooler engine? Fit a bigger rad or shove more air through it - with maybe a small increase in coolant flow rate to up the turbulence and therefore increase heat transfer from the engine to the coolant. All these expensive coolant additives etc are just a good way to lighten the overall car weight (assuming you are counting your wallet in the all up weight of the vehicle).

Edited by SukiDawg, 10 June 2009 - 07:25 PM.


#11 lotusv6seven

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:32 PM

Here in the south of Spain, we need an oil rad to keep engine T in 90-100ºC on the track.
But we couldn´t keep it till we made a box to address fresh air to rad and fan in the other side. Then, suddenly T went down from 120ºC to 90ºC...

#12 alexcrosse

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:23 PM

something i remember, was darren was looking at making a duct for the side of the radiator to force air through the radiator... forgot about that, talked to him about it at castle combe, prevent this high speed, high load overheating everyone seems to be experiencing

#13 lotusv6seven

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 07:31 AM

Yes. We did an aluminium hose and fresh air is taken directly from front grill to rad. Then, fan had to be removed from its original position to back and not to force air to rad, but it suck it out instead. This change was actually very important to improve Tª refrigeration, but this has just been tested on the track, I don´t really know how it´s going to be at road or city traffic.

Edited by lotusv6seven, 11 June 2009 - 07:39 AM.


#14 1stpromotive1275gt

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 03:36 PM

Here in the south of Spain, we need an oil rad to keep engine T in 90-100ºC on the track.
But we couldn´t keep it till we made a box to address fresh air to rad and fan in the other side. Then, suddenly T went down from 120ºC to 90ºC...



Putting this extra rad in the front (benifits of having a clubman with extra room) means I wont need a cold air duct or feed to the side rad as its getting a constant feed of cold air when moving through the extra one at the front through the clubman grille which you can really notice now Ive been out and tested it.
Last night after everyone had gone to bed I went out for a little blast around the streets. Probably did around 6 miles or so and the temp never went above 78 when driving. But was a bit cold last night. So its def doing its job.
I think im going to get my Dad to wire up the electric fan on the front rad on a switch and then I can turn that on when sitting in traffic or blasting it around the track. My next track day is on the 28th of july at Brands.

Edited by 1stpromotive1275gt, 11 June 2009 - 03:37 PM.


#15 Monte Busa

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 08:59 PM

Also - its irrelevent what your cooling fluid is - work through the thermodynamics of it and you'll find the specific heat capacity of the working fluid cancels out of the equations. Its nearly all down to rad size vs. internal surface area of the engine, plus turbulence and other dynamic heat transfer effects.


I disagree. You're forgetting one important aspect - if the fluid can be kept from vaporizing at the point of heat transfer, local hotspots in cylinder walls, heads, etc. can be minimized. Alhough the average temp of the fluid (plus pressurization effects, gotta love Boyle) will be below boiling, local areas adjacent to the combustion location will be WELL (100C or more) above the cooling medium average - that's the benefit of non-aqueous coolants like Evans, with is and Ethylene and Propylene mixture. Evans won't cause the average temps to go down with the give and take on specific gravity and heat transfer capacity vs water (which is a very good heat transfer medium, one of the best) but will reduce hot spots....so will reduce the stresses of running higher than desired temps.

Plus, air is a fluid too, so be careful what you call a working fluid...they are not all created equal. If your assertion were right, assuming you could flow air through the water coollant system at the same rate, it woudl be as good as any other fluid. Now if you could cycle a similar or same fluid MASS through the system, you may have a chance of being right, but at that pt you'd have an aircooled engine, not a watercooled one....

Edited by Monte Busa, 11 June 2009 - 09:04 PM.





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