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R1 Water Temperature


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#16 Rosslin Racing

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 10:44 AM

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.

#17 Monte Busa

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:05 PM

If you can find / develop something like that that works for the R1, please do share - that would be a definate option.

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.



#18 1stpromotive1275gt

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 03:11 PM

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.



When you do let us know and im sure you will be able to sell a few kits. Ill def be in the que for one.

#19 preston-7

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 04:25 PM

I can't remember the inside of the wing on a steel mini, but on my minus, It's solid, so I have cut away a big hole, to let the air escape, instead of bouncing back and heating the engine bay up. it was a bit of a hit and hope, however its worked nicely, dropped the temp down to about 90-100. if i wanted it cooler i think i would next remove the thermostat. or some sort of forced air from the grill.

Where has everyone put the temperature sender? i believer the only two options are the top of the radiator, and the pipe coming out the clyinder head, mines is on the pipe, and i would imagine the water coming through there to be a fair bit hotter

#20 1stpromotive1275gt

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 09:55 PM

I can't remember the inside of the wing on a steel mini, but on my minus, It's solid, so I have cut away a big hole, to let the air escape, instead of bouncing back and heating the engine bay up. it was a bit of a hit and hope, however its worked nicely, dropped the temp down to about 90-100. if i wanted it cooler i think i would next remove the thermostat. or some sort of forced air from the grill.

Where has everyone put the temperature sender? i believer the only two options are the top of the radiator, and the pipe coming out the clyinder head, mines is on the pipe, and i would imagine the water coming through there to be a fair bit hotter



Mine is as far as I know on the pipes that come out of the head and I would def aggree that its hotter there and probably not a true reading. Especially so when you turn the car off and the temp just keeps rising. Then as soon as you turn the car on the temp drops where the water is flowing round. The joys of having an electronic reading I surpose. Im consistanly watching it go up then down.

#21 Monte Busa

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:21 PM

Do you have any pictures of the box you made?

Here in the south of Spain, we need an oil rad to keep engine T in 90-100ºC on the track.
But we couldn´t keep it till we made a box to address fresh air to rad and fan in the other side. Then, suddenly T went down from 120ºC to 90ºC...



#22 Monte Busa

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:24 PM

If Darren is watching this thread - did you ever do anything with the duct idea?

I'm toying with adding an auxilliary radiator for my next track day (July 9) , but a duct would be a simpler and lighter weight solution....

Aric




something i remember, was darren was looking at making a duct for the side of the radiator to force air through the radiator... forgot about that, talked to him about it at castle combe, prevent this high speed, high load overheating everyone seems to be experiencing



#23 SukiDawg

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:52 AM

I disagree. You're forgetting one important aspect - if the fluid can be kept from vaporizing at the point of heat transfer, local hotspots in cylinder walls, heads, etc. can be minimized. Alhough the average temp of the fluid (plus pressurization effects, gotta love Boyle) will be below boiling, local areas adjacent to the combustion location will be WELL (100C or more) above the cooling medium average - that's the benefit of non-aqueous coolants like Evans, with is and Ethylene and Propylene mixture. Evans won't cause the average temps to go down with the give and take on specific gravity and heat transfer capacity vs water (which is a very good heat transfer medium, one of the best) but will reduce hot spots....so will reduce the stresses of running higher than desired temps.

Plus, air is a fluid too, so be careful what you call a working fluid...they are not all created equal. If your assertion were right, assuming you could flow air through the water coollant system at the same rate, it woudl be as good as any other fluid. Now if you could cycle a similar or same fluid MASS through the system, you may have a chance of being right, but at that pt you'd have an aircooled engine, not a watercooled one....



Your comment about nuclieate bioling is correct - that does or can occur, but its overall effect is negligable based on testing I've done. I'm very lucky to do this type of thing for a living and have tested a number of these so called super fluids on the dyno. We've never been able to measure any appreachable difference (this was for an WRC application, so our equipment is reliable). On rallies like the Acropolis in greece the cars run in upto 45degC ambient, and with anti-lag etc running the heat rejection is probably 50% higher than running with a more normal engine (combusting fuel IN the exhaust port rather than the cylinder), so any small advantage would be worth exploiting.

I appreciate that what I wrote before is a simplistic view, but the numbers speak for themselves. If you wanted to take it to an extreme, it does fall down (your air in the water jacket analogy); I was simplifying to try and explain where I was coming from..

The hottest bit of any engine is usually the "exhaust bridge" which is the little bit of metal between the exhuast valve seats - so if you are going to have nucliate bioling it will be there if anywhere - for our tests (I did this in 2001 for the 2002 homologated Focus Cosworth Zetec WRC engine) - we instrumented a head with a thermocouple fitted into the metal in this area. There was no measurable difference observed. I don't remember what exactly the fluids were now, but there were additives to aqueous coolants and non-aqueous types amongst them.

Anyways, I'm OK with us having a difference of opinion, but I did try this! Perhaps on older engines with less well designed coolant passages the special coolants could make more of a difference but I'm not convinced they have an effect for a modern engine like the R1.

Some of the other comments about removing the water/oil heat exchanger are valid, for my R1 project I'm going to remove this and make an adaptor to run an oil/air cooler as others have suggested. In doing so you make the heat rejected through the water less, so for a given massflow of coolant you get a larger temp reduction.

Cheers


David

#24 roofless

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:27 PM

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.



put me on the list for one also :cry: after i boiled up my first engine we have been looking for something along these lines

Edited by roofless, 14 June 2009 - 01:27 PM.


#25 Rosslin Racing

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:27 PM

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.



When you do let us know and im sure you will be able to sell a few kits. Ill def be in the que for one.

i get on that and post piccys and price asp.

#26 Monte Busa

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 04:39 PM

I just though of another idea - since the Pro-mo kit already has a remote oil filter, you could plumb an oil cooler into the line feeding the filter - I am going to look at line routing options and cooler mounting options this afternoon...

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.



When you do let us know and im sure you will be able to sell a few kits. Ill def be in the que for one.

i get on that and post piccys and price asp.



#27 Monte Busa

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:57 PM

Sounds like you have some experience with this kind of thing then! Anyone who cites thermodynamic theory with confidence very well should! I'd be really interested in hearing about your studies of localized nucleate boiling - so I'm assuming you have done direct measurement of cylinder head / exhaust bridge temperature or perhaps delta BHP @ temperature to come to the conclusion that the effect is negligible? For my money, I'll try the Evans NGP-R - avoiding local boiling and being able to run with effectively a 0 pressure system can't be a BAD thing....

That said, I woudln't mind if I could lower the water temp a bit, so any work you guys do on an air / oil system will be watched with great interest I'm sure!

Cheers,

Aric



Your comment about nuclieate bioling is correct - that does or can occur, but its overall effect is negligable based on testing I've done. I'm very lucky to do this type of thing for a living and have tested a number of these so called super fluids on the dyno. We've never been able to measure any appreachable difference (this was for an WRC application, so our equipment is reliable). On rallies like the Acropolis in greece the cars run in upto 45degC ambient, and with anti-lag etc running the heat rejection is probably 50% higher than running with a more normal engine (combusting fuel IN the exhaust port rather than the cylinder), so any small advantage would be worth exploiting.

I appreciate that what I wrote before is a simplistic view, but the numbers speak for themselves. If you wanted to take it to an extreme, it does fall down (your air in the water jacket analogy); I was simplifying to try and explain where I was coming from..

The hottest bit of any engine is usually the "exhaust bridge" which is the little bit of metal between the exhuast valve seats - so if you are going to have nucliate bioling it will be there if anywhere - for our tests (I did this in 2001 for the 2002 homologated Focus Cosworth Zetec WRC engine) - we instrumented a head with a thermocouple fitted into the metal in this area. There was no measurable difference observed. I don't remember what exactly the fluids were now, but there were additives to aqueous coolants and non-aqueous types amongst them.

Anyways, I'm OK with us having a difference of opinion, but I did try this! Perhaps on older engines with less well designed coolant passages the special coolants could make more of a difference but I'm not convinced they have an effect for a modern engine like the R1.

Some of the other comments about removing the water/oil heat exchanger are valid, for my R1 project I'm going to remove this and make an adaptor to run an oil/air cooler as others have suggested. In doing so you make the heat rejected through the water less, so for a given massflow of coolant you get a larger temp reduction.

Cheers


David


Edited by Monte Busa, 14 June 2009 - 09:58 PM.


#28 alexcrosse

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:32 PM

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.



put me on the list for one also :( after i boiled up my first engine we have been looking for something along these lines


you did something completely different to destroy the first engine, judging by the amount of gear teeth i found in the sump

#29 roofless

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 12:45 AM

My 5 pence:
the R1 oil cooler/ heat exchanger is in the wrong place to be of use, so why not make an adaptor to take the oil to an oil cooler and forget the water cooling.
this should help reduce the water temp becouse its not being heated by the oil and also the oil also cools and lubs engine parts. anyone done that?
I am going to.



put me on the list for one also :) after i boiled up my first engine we have been looking for something along these lines


you did something completely different to destroy the first engine, judging by the amount of gear teeth i found in the sump


overheated, seized at high speed, ( or at least it tried to seize, and then definately seized as i slowed down ) ate its own gearbox for good measure at a guess? :( it did actually start and drive again but it was clearly shot, so we decided to see just how far it would go before it melted :D . It expelled all its oil through the breather - pressure in the sump? we never did really explore it in any way before it was stripped for bits and moved on.

either way, and any way up, rosslin's bit-o-kit sounds like a good addition :P

#30 lotusv6seven

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 07:10 AM

Do you have any pictures of the box you made?


Sorry, I haven´t and I´m out right now for a week, so I won´t be able to take a picture till next saturday.
But It´s very easy to do. Just a thin aluminium sheet bolted to rad and fixed to promotive chassis, a bell shape from grill to rad. Cutting, Folding and sticking together...

Edited by lotusv6seven, 15 June 2009 - 07:17 AM.





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