Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Removing Coil Springs From The Front Suspension

suspension

Best Answer nicklouse , 04 August 2019 - 12:38 AM

You're probably best just removing the upper arm if the spring's loose with the Hi-lo at it's shortest. 
 
Are you keeping the springs or changing back to rubber cones?

Thanks for the reply. I'll read up on that process. I'm planning on staying with new springs along with a new set of shocks. The weather conditions here are very tough on rubber. I don't want to repeat the job any sooner than necessary. 
 

I had Japanese Mini Delta Springs with the Mini Delta Hi-Lo
 
I used the normal Spring Compressor Tool.  I also replaced them with Red-Spot Rubber Suspension and oh boy was I glad that I did!
 
That being said the springs on my Mini were fine as long as the roads were very smooth, if they became slightly rough and undulating the springs were horrible.

Thanks also for the reply. Were you able to get the compression tool on both sides? It looks like it would be tough to get the tool on the passenger cabin side of the spring. The roads here are pretty good and I haven't noticed any serious issues (other than the age and quality of the old worn suspension).
Yes I had no problem with the compression tool on both sides.
 
The main problem I had with springs is that our roads tend to be a tad bumpy.  The springs would run out of suspension travel and coil bind whereas the Rubber suspension is progressive and wouldn't.  The springs were fine when the roads were nice and smooth, as soon as they weren't the Rubber suspension would win hands down.
 
Can I ask what springs are you going to replace them with.
 
Good to know about the compression tool. I may go ahead and remove the upper arm to rebuild it. It looks to be original so it wouldn't hurt it to update the components.
 
Also good to know. We may end up moving back east in a few years. If so, the roads are much different and I may need to re-evaluate the ride quality. Also the temperatures in the east are much more reasonable and there is actual humidity in the air. The normal temps here in the summer are well over 100F and the humidity levels are typically in the 10-20% range. Neither is particularly good for the rubber cones.
 
I lucked up on a good deal with new 7ent springs. I've done a test fit on the rear and they fit much better than the previous set. I'm going to go ahead and replace the front bump stop while I've got it apart. That should allow me to evaluate if there is any new contact with the arm. 
 

There are different opinions on coil springs vs rubber cones.  Just be aware of the potential problems coil springs can cause in a Mini.
 
See this thread:  http://www.theminifo...specifications/

I appreciate your help. The link you included was one of many that I read through while reaching a decision (and it hasn't been an easy one).
 
The factors I considered included the type of driving I plan to do with the Mini, the local road conditions, the potential that modifications would be needed to the HiLo, and the longevity of the cone vs spring. I'm looking for a smooth ride under quick conditions at most. I've got a JCW F56 that's set up for track days/fast road conditions so the Classic doesn't have to fill that role. Mostly it will be driven around town with some fun cruises down curvy roads. The tarmac here is a combination of asphalt and concrete and is generally very smooth and polished. I'm switching wheels & tires from 145/70 R12 to 165/70 R10 so the potential for the HiLo needing modification was a consideration also.
 
Again, I really appreciate everyone's help! Joining this forum has helped me immensely as far as knowledge but hasn't helped my bank account at all. Of course, just buying a Mini may have had an effect on that part.  :D

Sounds like you need rubber in there not springs.
 
It may end up being a choice I regret, but just having the old springs out will be an improvement. If nothing else, I will know how to take apart the suspension to install the cones  :proud:

The problem with springs is they are linear in rate. The rubber and cone gives a rising rate. So you have small bump compliance and as the suspension moves the spring assy gets stronger. The coil spring in the same space can do neither as it has to be stiff to give you the same rate as you need at suspension bump. Which leaves you with a car with very poor small bump compliance. Or if the spring is soft enough to give small bump compliance you have a car that wallows into corners. The rubber replacement springs have nothing going right for them. The coil over kits are just as bad. Look at any race Mini that has coil overs and see where the top mount is. Way inboard of the existing mount. Why? So as to have the spring compressing linearly at the end of its travel. As the suspension moves through an arc you have some interesting effects on the spring when the load is vertical. Moving the top pick up point results in a rising rate spring which is what all (most) need in their suspension. The kits out there result in giving you a failing rate spring.

MokeSpider on here went to a spring designer wanting to replace the spring medium. When the designer comes back and says (I use the words in my head as I forgot what he posted) “ Have you thought about using rubber as I can’t get the results from a coil!” That tells you something.

Me? I have coils on my race Mini. I remember when they were developing the spring kits soon worked out they were crap and made my own set up. Next Mini on the road will be on rubber. Go to the full post


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#16 nicklouse

nicklouse

    Moved Into The Garage

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,876 posts
  • Location: Not Yorkshire
  • Local Club: Anonyme Miniholiker

Posted 04 August 2019 - 10:19 AM

And where would you fit those bits of crap?

#17 CKWilliams

CKWilliams

    Just On Tickover

  • TMF+ Member
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location: Las Vegas, NV
  • Local Club: British Auto Club of Las Vegas

Posted 04 August 2019 - 12:57 PM

You'll get a lot of negativism on coil springs on this forum, and there is plenty of evidence to support their point of view, there also is a lot of "keep it original" sentiment here.....

 

I ran coil springs on my Clubman Estate for 20K, the new owner has done at least that many miles all with no issues whatsoever. We did a run to the Texas hill country where there were plenty of really rough roads too....so, take that for what it's worth....

 

You will need to remove the upper control arm to get the old springs out and the new ones in both, so go ahead and do it. While you're in there you'll probably find the needle bearings and shaft well worn, so plan for that too. If your car doesn't already have them you might consider a good set of adjustale lower control arms and tie bars so you can fine tune the alignment. I prefer the ones from MiniSport myself.....You might also look into our US forum - RestorationMini dot com, we are classics based, lots of knowledgable guys there and no egos in the way of helping a new guy......

 

If you join up, I'm MiniDave on there

Thanks Dave. I'm on the Restoration Mini forum also and it's a great resource. I'm planning to rebuild the upper arms and will be replacing the tie bars also since at least one of them has a slight bend in it. It sounds like replacing the lower arms would be a good choice also.



#18 Moke Spider

Moke Spider

    Crazy About Mini's

  • TMF Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,405 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 04 August 2019 - 07:46 PM

For the record (and I have mentioned on this forum before :proud:  ) I'm not ' Against Coil Springs ' but, they just simply can't be made to work in a Mini.

 

In order to get the required rate (or in that ball park), you need to use a certain size wire, by the time the space is taken up with that size wire and the number of coils needed so as the wire isn't stressed (and still in the spring range), you run out of travel in the spring. I spent some months with a R&D Engineer and a Coil Spring Factory going right over all this, we did try all manner of things, and (as Nick mentioned) in the end he turned to me and asked "Ever thought of using Rubber?"

 

End result being that the Coils run in to Bind well before the arms reach the Bump Stop. This is why we see Subframe Tower Tops popped off, broken springs, bent hilos etc.

 

Also, for the record, when they can be made to work, it's highly likely I'll be at the front of the cue to get some.

 

A comparison Graph;-

 

CFut5Fa.jpg

 

Result;-

 

vw2qiiW.jpg

 

O19t0nX.jpg

 

41Xvcy3.jpg



#19 Magneto

Magneto

    Super Mini Mad

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 690 posts
  • Location: Kansas City, USA
  • Local Club: KC MINI Club

Posted 05 August 2019 - 12:41 AM

I never understood why they try to fit such a short coil spring, especially in the back where there is tons of room to put a longer one. In front there's no reason to use the 3" trumpet, it could easily be shortened to just thick enough to support the spring that would add at least 2-3" of travel, eliminating coil bind.


Edited by Magneto, 05 August 2019 - 12:42 AM.


#20 Moke Spider

Moke Spider

    Crazy About Mini's

  • TMF Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,405 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 05 August 2019 - 02:37 AM

I never understood why they try to fit such a short coil spring, especially in the back where there is tons of room to put a longer one. In front there's no reason to use the 3" trumpet, it could easily be shortened to just thick enough to support the spring that would add at least 2-3" of travel, eliminating coil bind.

 

Yes, it would be possible in the rear to use a longer spring, but it would also need a guide to stop it flinging out one side or the other. Definitely do-able.

 

Front, not so easy. The Bump Stop mount prevents a longer spring from being fitted.



#21 DeadSquare

DeadSquare

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,564 posts
  • Location: Herefordshire
  • Local Club: Herefordshire Motor Club

Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:40 AM

I have wondered for almost 60 years, why the designer of the Morris Minor didn't use a subframe incorporating lower wishbone torsion bars.

 

 

A tapered front spring would replace the doughnut and the trumpet;  it's inherently stability would not deflect sideways.



#22 unburntfuelinthemorning

unburntfuelinthemorning

    One Carb Or Two?

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,240 posts
  • Location: Bedfordshire

Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:29 AM

 

End result being that the Coils run in to Bind well before the arms reach the Bump Stop. This is why we see Subframe Tower Tops popped off, broken springs, bent hilos etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if the bump stops were modified so the springs weren't able to run into coil bind that would at least prevent subframes and things getting broken.



#23 Moke Spider

Moke Spider

    Crazy About Mini's

  • TMF Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,405 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 05 August 2019 - 07:43 AM

 

 

End result being that the Coils run in to Bind well before the arms reach the Bump Stop. This is why we see Subframe Tower Tops popped off, broken springs, bent hilos etc.

 

 

So if the bump stops were modified so the springs weren't able to run into coil bind that would at least prevent subframes and things getting broken.

 

Hold on. Time to re-evaluate what it is that is desired as an end result.

 

Yes, making the Bump Stops longer will sop the Coils from running in to bind and all the issues associated with that. It will also reduce the amount of usable travel of the front suspension.

 

But, is this a forward or backward move in regards to the suspension ?



#24 unburntfuelinthemorning

unburntfuelinthemorning

    One Carb Or Two?

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,240 posts
  • Location: Bedfordshire

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:30 AM

 

 

So if the bump stops were modified so the springs weren't able to run into coil bind that would at least prevent subframes and things getting broken.

 

Hold on. Time to re-evaluate what it is that is desired as an end result.

 

Yes, making the Bump Stops longer will sop the Coils from running in to bind and all the issues associated with that. It will also reduce the amount of usable travel of the front suspension.

 

But, is this a forward or backward move in regards to the suspension ?

 

I know what you're saying but if someone was determined to fit this type of coil spring then modifying the bump stops to prevent coil bind would be essential.

 

Do the coil springs not come with advice to do this?



#25 DeadSquare

DeadSquare

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,564 posts
  • Location: Herefordshire
  • Local Club: Herefordshire Motor Club

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:46 AM

 

 

 

So if the bump stops were modified so the springs weren't able to run into coil bind that would at least prevent subframes and things getting broken.

 

Hold on. Time to re-evaluate what it is that is desired as an end result.

 

Yes, making the Bump Stops longer will sop the Coils from running in to bind and all the issues associated with that. It will also reduce the amount of usable travel of the front suspension.

 

But, is this a forward or backward move in regards to the suspension ?

 

I know what you're saying but if someone was determined to fit this type of coil spring then modifying the bump stops to prevent coil bind would be essential.

 

Do the coil springs not come with advice to do this?

 

 

I say, old man, that's given me a good idea.

 

Save weight by chucking the doughnut and trumpet, and run on the bump stops.

 

Brilliant !!



#26 Moke Spider

Moke Spider

    Crazy About Mini's

  • TMF Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,405 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:57 AM

 

 

 

So if the bump stops were modified so the springs weren't able to run into coil bind that would at least prevent subframes and things getting broken.

 

Hold on. Time to re-evaluate what it is that is desired as an end result.

 

Yes, making the Bump Stops longer will sop the Coils from running in to bind and all the issues associated with that. It will also reduce the amount of usable travel of the front suspension.

 

But, is this a forward or backward move in regards to the suspension ?

 

I know what you're saying but if someone was determined to fit this type of coil spring then modifying the bump stops to prevent coil bind would be essential.

 

Do the coil springs not come with advice to do this?

 

 

to be honest I'm not sure. All the advertising I've seen for all of them say or suggest they are a direct replacement for the rubber cone.

 

But again, what are we gaining ?

 

What is wrong with the rubber cone ?

 

<Edit: I now note that those springs sold by Mini Spares are promoted as 'Race Springs' and they in fact don't recommend them for Road Use. Interesting;-

 

" It has been said that one of the biggest improvements that can be made to a Mini is to replace the rubber cone springs. When that statement was made it referred to new rubber cones… There is now a new USA/Japan standard in Mini springing: coil springs! This direct-replacement kit includes everything to replace the rubber cones with springs. The highest quality progressive winding is used to insure that the springs will not sag after many years of use, unlike the rubber cones. Available in three spring rates: C-SRP100 is soft (Blue), C-SRP200 is firm (Red), and C-SRP250 competition spec. These are not recommended for road use and suspension should be suitably set up as these springs can move in "situ" especially when the car is lowered and driven over rough road. The safer way of converting to coil springs is the spax set up RSX519/520. Mini Spares has been keeping this part since 1999. "

 

http://www.minispare...ck to search    >


Edited by Moke Spider, 05 August 2019 - 09:02 AM.


#27 unburntfuelinthemorning

unburntfuelinthemorning

    One Carb Or Two?

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,240 posts
  • Location: Bedfordshire

Posted 05 August 2019 - 09:29 AM

I recently replace the collapsed rubber cones on my van with new ones and it transformed the ride quality - much more supple. 

 

I never knew a Mini could ride speed bumps and pot holes so well, much better than the modern Focus that we also have!



#28 nicklouse

nicklouse

    Moved Into The Garage

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,876 posts
  • Location: Not Yorkshire
  • Local Club: Anonyme Miniholiker

Posted 05 August 2019 - 01:09 PM

So if the bump stops were modified so the springs weren't able to run into coil bind that would at least prevent subframes and things getting broken.

 
Hold on. Time to re-evaluate what it is that is desired as an end result.
 
Yes, making the Bump Stops longer will sop the Coils from running in to bind and all the issues associated with that. It will also reduce the amount of usable travel of the front suspension.
 
But, is this a forward or backward move in regards to the suspension ?
I know what you're saying but if someone was determined to fit this type of coil spring then modifying the bump stops to prevent coil bind would be essential.
 
Do the coil springs not come with advice to do this?
 
to be honest I'm not sure. All the advertising I've seen for all of them say or suggest they are a direct replacement for the rubber cone.
 
But again, what are we gaining ?
 
What is wrong with the rubber cone ?
 
<Edit: I now note that those springs sold by Mini Spares are promoted as 'Race Springs' and they in fact don't recommend them for Road Use. Interesting;-
 
" It has been said that one of the biggest improvements that can be made to a Mini is to replace the rubber cone springs. When that statement was made it referred to new rubber cones… There is now a new USA/Japan standard in Mini springing: coil springs! This direct-replacement kit includes everything to replace the rubber cones with springs. The highest quality progressive winding is used to insure that the springs will not sag after many years of use, unlike the rubber cones. Available in three spring rates: C-SRP100 is soft (Blue), C-SRP200 is firm (Red), and C-SRP250 competition spec. These are not recommended for road use and suspension should be suitably set up as these springs can move in "situ" especially when the car is lowered and driven over rough road. The safer way of converting to coil springs is the spax set up RSX519/520. Mini Spares has been keeping this part since 1999. "
 
http://www.minispare...ck to search    >

But again the Spax kit. All the mount points on the rear are offset from the shaft. Nice loading.
And the spring angles on the front..... please.

#29 Magneto

Magneto

    Super Mini Mad

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 690 posts
  • Location: Kansas City, USA
  • Local Club: KC MINI Club

Posted 06 August 2019 - 02:58 AM

I've found the Smooth A Ride kit MiniSport sells really improves the ride quality.....nothing like a new modern car but a significant improvement over standard rubber springs.



#30 gazza82

gazza82

    Up Into Fourth

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,184 posts
  • Location: Bucks
  • Local Club: TMF+

Posted 20 August 2019 - 03:21 PM

I have wondered for almost 60 years, why the designer of the Morris Minor didn't use a subframe incorporating lower wishbone torsion bars.

 

 

A tapered front spring would replace the doughnut and the trumpet;  it's inherently stability would not deflect sideways.

 

Cost probably and what parts were already in the bins ..







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: suspension

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Mini Spares