20 replies to this topic

[biggav]

we have a similar situation here....

the old lady who used to live in our house made next door build their extension and patio at an angle off of the boundary.. i gave the land back as soon as i found out.. and put a close board fence around the whole garden... The neighbor on the other side then complained that she could no longer get down the side of her garage (which was overgrown with weeds and had a rake of old asbestos guttering and downpipe lodged down there... no one had been down there for years)
The original boundary post is still at the front of the houses and the rearmost was replaced like for like... a string line pulled between the 2 should give an accurate line which is actually 6" from her garage... the fence is actually 8" within my side of the boundary as this was the closest that the men could get to it in order to build it. it then curves on to the corner of my house (at her request) meaning i have given up about 2ft of garden!!!!

When the day comes, i will be knocking the fence down and rebuilding it on the boundary!!!!!

[1984mini25]

First off, ignore the position of the lamp post or anything to do with the council. They have dropped the kerb as far as the lamp post simply because a) that's how much kerb your neighbour paid to have dropped and b) they didn't want to have to reset the lamp post base which they have to ask the electicity board to get involved with. The council have no idea about your land boundry, unless it's a council house which I'm guessing it isn't. The Land Registry might know about the boundries but if the house hasn't changed hands in the last 10 or 15 years or so it's not likely. Your deeds and your neighbour's deeds will show a boundry but identifying it accurately to within a metre or two isn't always possible from the deeds, because you've normally only got a photostat copy of them with a big red ink mark on them showing your plot and the ink blurs the edges. If the original surveying posts (usually in large developments these tend to be the original concrete posts at the corner of each plot from the original 3-wire fences) still exist you can measure off these but they tend to vanish over the years. You could get a surveyor to come and inspect the boundry and compare it to the original copy of the deeds if you can get hold of it. Then again two surveyors will often disagree with each other to within a couple of feet of a boundry so your neighbour could simply get their own surveyor to claim against you.

In short there is no accurate way to determine your boundry. They tend to be determined based on what's been there in the past and what's been agreed or simply accepted between neighbours. There is a law that if a piece of land has held an accepted boundry undisputed for 12 years then that is good enough to be proof of who owns which side of what line and to define where the line is. If the fence was in one place for 12 years or more before your neighbour moved it then as I understand it they have stolen your land.

Regarding the fence I believe you are entitled to remove it and return it to their property providing you don't damage any part of it, which means carefully digging out the posts and any concrete holding them. You can only do that though if you can prove for definite that it is on your land and I suspect that is why you have been advised against it. It would be a bad idea to move it without discussing it properly.

This is the kind of thing that drags on forever if you start proceedings. Unfortunately there is little you can do about it, you just have to come to terms with your neighbours. Try searching the Land Registry to see if they have both your and your neighbour's house listed. The neighbour's property should be there if it has just been sold even if yours isn't. They are on-line and I think it costs about £2.00 to download a record for a property. This might help you to find the actual plot boundry. You might equally find though that each set of plans shows the same piece of land belongs to its plot.

Well my folks have lived hear in the same house pretty much since it was built over 30years ago and so have loads of photos going back showing were the fence original used to be.

As you say the deeds are pretty much useless because they simply aren’t accurate enough, And it’s been a case of going round in circles for the last few years trying to get the situation resolved.

well if it were me i would wait until the new owners move in (if you cant get it solved beforehand) then i would explain the problem to them and that you have done everything to get the previous owners to move it and offer to move the fence yourself that way they don't feel that you come over and start moaning as they are trying to move in and you get the job done as you want it and still keep the peace with the new owners

michael

If It comes to it that’s what will probably do, but will defiantly be making sure they know of the situation before they move in.

I presume that the red line is the one that is at an angle and that your house is on the right of the picture.

In that case, if it is a line of houses then the fact that the fence is now at an odd angle to the rest of the plot would indicate that there is something wrong. In a line of houses the boundaries are normally straight - is this in a line of houses? Also, it appears that the new fence starts at the same place as the old boundary which has set an agreed boundary line as it were. If the boundary was in question, then it would be averagely normal to move the whole boundary over by 2', not just the one end.

Further, of course, what is good for the goose is good for the gander - In which case there is little stopping you from moving the fence back to the original position or indeed putting up your own fence along the original boundary!

Do you have any photographs of any original fence, any neighbours that remember, what about other houses in the street?

Don't worry about him being a police man, they have far fewer powers than many like to think and it basically would come down to a court deciding what is correct - If this was to happen then this is where you need all the documented evidence. Dates, times, histories, converations, deeds, photos, witness statements etc. to give yourselves a good strong case. The fact that the fence was moved while you were away without any consultation has them on the back foot straight away in any case! Further, if your drawing is 'accurate', it would suggest that the extra bit of drive is new and if it that was taken away then the original boundary would be equidistant between the two original drives - which would make sense.

A google earth image would be quite useful, it would put it in context. Chances are it will show the new fence but there is a small chance that it is out of date and would show the old arrangement - worth a look.

From what you have said and from the evidence supplied, I think you would win hands down (my opinion only, obviously). I would, however, be tempted to sort it before the house is sold else that could open a whole new can of worms.

Well hears a few picks of the “new” fence.

At the house end it’s follows on from a dividing wall which obviously isn’t that easy to move as that’s also holding up his side of his property. But as you can see it then wanders off line until it gets to the bottom of the gardeners at which point it should be in line with a central post which is original and in line with the lamp post.

[attachment=83648:HPIM6202.JPG][attachment=83649:HPIM7140.jpg]

As you can also see moving the fence isn’t quite as easy, since all the plants/cheap greenhouse have been added to disguise it.

And one of the extra bit, the broken bit in the panel is were the new fence ends and pointed out is the post in the middle.
[attachment=83650:HPIM8615.JPG]

[bamby]

ive had a similar thing with next door on both sides, went away on holiday came back there was a new fence all the fixings were on our side of the fence they had been on our side etc so needless to say they were chraged with trespass. (not really of great use)

the other side tried to tell us that the greenhouse we had (dating back to when the land was origionally a nursery) was in their garden. our deeds and solicitor proved that it was in our garden and the boundary was as set.

when the builder submitted plans there will have been a garden plan of simply the rough guide to the boundary on each side. The council will be able to tell you where your Building boundary is (useful if you ever need to extend the garage) land registry should be able to help you be showing you were your boundary is .. there is another way you can view your boundary just depends on who your council is , this can be done online.

best bet is send a solicitors letter to the estate agent stating the boundary dispute and also courtesy copy to the new buyers through the estate agents and keep hasteling them. the more you make a fuss the less the agent will ignore it. also register a complaint at the land registry as when the searchs on the property go though it will come up. so complain to as many regulators / authorities as you can about it and it should get you somewhere.. ill add the link for the boundary bit when i find it

[bamby]

some stuff from the land registry themselves :

The Physical Boundary:
A registered title almost never shows ownership of individual boundary structures such as walls, fences and hedges. There may, however, be some relevant information on the register or in Land Registry’s files. For example, Land Registry may have kept a copy of a deed that refers to a boundary declaration or agreement, or to the ownership or maintenance of boundaries. Please note that, deeds rarely deal with such matters. If ownership or maintenance is important to you, you may, for example, need to talk to neighbours and/or previous owners. Ordnance Survey cannot provide information on either property extent or land ownership.

The Legal Boundary:
A legal boundary deals with the precise separation of ownership of land. It is an invisible line dividing one person’s land from another’s. It does not have thickness or width and usually, but not always, falls somewhere in or along a physical boundary feature such as a wall, fence or hedge. The exact positions of the legal boundaries are almost never shown on registered title plans and are not shown on Ordnance Survey maps.

General Boundaries
England and Wales operates a ‘general boundaries’ system of land registration. A title plan with ‘general boundaries’ shows the boundary of a property in relation to a given physical feature on the ground such as a wall or hedge as identified on the Ordnance Survey map.

The red edging on a Land Registry title plan is therefore not definitive as to the precise position of the boundaries. For this reason official copies of title plans carry the following warning.

This title plan shows the general position of the boundaries: it does not show the exact line of the boundaries. Measurements scaled from this plan may not match measurements between the same points on the ground.

This is a clear statement that Land Registry is unable to tell you precisely where a property boundary is located.

useful site

then the above site links to this to get your title deeds you can also access your neeighbours too titledeed

[Dan]

all the fixings were on our side of the fence they had been on our side etc so needless to say they were chraged with trespass.

Most deeds include an easement that covers maintenance and replacement of fences and boundry structures, this grants your neighbour or their agent the right to access their fence from your property if needed without prior permission and there's nothing you can do about it. The easement is permission.

[sixwheeler]

best bet is send a solicitors letter to the estate agent stating the boundary dispute and also courtesy copy to the new buyers through the estate agents and keep hasteling them. the more you make a fuss the less the agent will ignore it. also register a complaint at the land registry as when the searchs on the property go though it will come up. so complain to as many regulators / authorities as you can about it and it should get you somewhere.. ill add the link for the boundary bit when i find it

As the orginal posts locations are still there and it is a line of houses down a straight road, it is inconceivable that the boundary would be at an angle.

If your left and right hand neighbours houses are the same layout then you can use them as a refernce - i.e. if their fences run parallel from the house then it is a given that yours should also do so. A Google earth image may also help as it may show your boundary at an angle and your neighbours perpendicular. Get your tape measure out and measure up the neighbours houses.

If that all checks out then I'd do what he says above but I would also go a stage further - if no response is forthcoming from the above then there is little option other than to go down to the local court and start proceedings, that'll make them think.

No reason to be afraid of the court, it is just a room with a few tables in and a man that listens to the arguments and then makes a descision.