25 replies to this topic

[Asphalt]

By the way im getting on a bit myself and fully appreciate the old ways are sometimes the best.

Just for fun. and i am not trying to start an issue here.


http://www.theminifo...x...t&p=1848578

One thing: once you start DIY, you should at least check the resukts with proessional gear to wipe out possible errors you might have done. We are talking sbout very smal corrections here. At least over hre the ADAC (same as RAC) offers free tracking checks (they are legally not allowed to perform any adjustments, though).

But if done right - I see no problem with that. It's the same basic geometry; wheter you or a machine does compute it. But: the engine is made for thast purpose - humans not so and may fail mor frequent. Having said that; the last garage I had my suspension set up used a machine which used strings!! And they completely messed it up...

Sorry for typos, I'm on a nebook with smal keyboard

Cheers,
Jan

PS: and im still learning and figuringstuff out - what i posted there in that project thread might not be THE way to go

Edited by Asphalt, 29 June 2010 - 09:44 PM.

[Dave33]

Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with dave, Yes you can guess with bits of string, but if you want it bang on then you need the proper kit. And am i the only one who thinks its a bit of a contradiction to suggest the use of feeler gauges and a bit of string. I mean really, to measure a gap difference of 0.2 - 0.3mm useing string that will move as soon as you touch it "Come on"

There is no 'contradiction' and there is no 'guess work' involved, merely time and patience ,the feeler gauge is a good tool for this as most people have them if they do there own maintanance,and you can have a 1.6mm or whatever thicknness slide you need.The string is in tension so any movement will be noticed,if it wont slide in without pushing the string out there is not enough toe out,no sliding contact with string and theres too much toe out.patience is needed though if you want satisfactory results.
this is how i have always done it,keith calver wrote an in depth article about using this method not so long ago,i tend to rate him highly as he doesnt bulls**t subjects,just gives facts of his experiences and what works and more importantly whats needed,garages use special(read expensive) optical alignment tool cause they are used alot,and its quicker.
If you really think you can notice 0.2mm difference on one side im lost for words....
I have always set my car this way for tracking,the car doesnt pull to one side and drives straight as can be.
I also use a plumb line gauge to set my camber and castor,this uses string with a weight attached(a plumb line,as builders use)and a board with gradients on it,where the plumb line passes through the gradient is what it currently is.
I suppose this is not accurate enough either?
A question,have you tried this method yourself or are you just assuming you need fancy equipement for basically setting a straight line and measuring the distance between the tyre,toe in or out?
This method does take patience ,yes,but as for the string that is tight moving?
if it moves you will see this.simple.
I think if you havent tried it yourself,then you cant really disagree,you are only assuming its not accurate enough.
the end result is only as good as the effort thats put in,so if you cant be bothered doing it this way and want to give a garage some custom then do,but if there not that bothered about 0.1 or 2 of a mm then all the fancy equipement in the world wont help(its only gonna be as accurate as the guy operating it).
Yes things move on,but not always for the better,especially when we are talking about old cars,that didnt leave the factory with the precisest of set ups,and still handled great.
Basic things still apply,more effort is required and accuracy requires more time to ascertain,but even if you were 0.5mm out i doubt it would be noticeable to the driver.
IF we were discussing setting up a f3 car or miglia then obviously things are a bit more critical,but for a mini,road or trackday use?give me a break.....
dave

Edited by Dave33, 30 June 2010 - 12:43 AM.

[Yoda]

Ok, Shall we old boys duck out now before someone throws a spanner?

I was just pleased that an earlier generation member was using the exact same method as some of us old ones!

Well done Jan, keep up the good work.


and sorry i borrowed your post to demonstrate

[AndyMiniMad.]

Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with dave, Yes you can guess with bits of string, but if you want it bang on then you need the proper kit. And am i the only one who thinks its a bit of a contradiction to suggest the use of feeler gauges and a bit of string. I mean really, to measure a gap difference of 0.2 - 0.3mm useing string that will move as soon as you touch it "Come on"

There is no 'contradiction' and there is no 'guess work' involved, merely time and patience ,the feeler gauge is a good tool for this as most people have them if they do there own maintanance,and you can have a 1.6mm or whatever thicknness slide you need.The string is in tension so any movement will be noticed,if it wont slide in without pushing the string out there is not enough toe out,no sliding contact with string and theres too much toe out.patience is needed though if you want satisfactory results.
this is how i have always done it,keith calver wrote an in depth article about using this method not so long ago,i tend to rate him highly as he doesnt bulls**t subjects,just gives facts of his experiences and what works and more importantly whats needed,garages use special(read expensive) optical alignment tool cause they are used alot,and its quicker.
If you really think you can notice 0.2mm difference on one side im lost for words....
I have always set my car this way for tracking,the car doesnt pull to one side and drives straight as can be.
I also use a plumb line gauge to set my camber and castor,this uses string with a weight attached(a plumb line,as builders use)and a board with gradients on it,where the plumb line passes through the gradient is what it currently is.
I suppose this is not accurate enough either?
A question,have you tried this method yourself or are you just assuming you need fancy equipement for basically setting a straight line and measuring the distance between the tyre,toe in or out?
This method does take patience ,yes,but as for the string that is tight moving?
if it moves you will see this.simple.
I think if you havent tried it yourself,then you cant really disagree,you are only assuming its not accurate enough.
the end result is only as good as the effort thats put in,so if you cant be bothered doing it this way and want to give a garage some custom then do,but if there not that bothered about 0.1 or 2 of a mm then all the fancy equipement in the world wont help(its only gonna be as accurate as the guy operating it).
Yes things move on,but not always for the better,especially when we are talking about old cars,that didnt leave the factory with the precisest of set ups,and still handled great.
Basic things still apply,more effort is required and accuracy requires more time to ascertain,but even if you were 0.5mm out i doubt it would be noticeable to the driver.
IF we were discussing setting up a f3 car or miglia then obviously things are a bit more critical,but for a mini,road or trackday use?give me a break.....
dave

Hi Dave.
I stand corrected!!!

The Original posters question seemed to be leaning towards the line of site method, which is why i asked if he was useing tracking equipment. also in the subsequent post, because he needed a quick fix, I suggested the car rolling method of centralising the steering, (not exactly new fangled). My suggestion that he take it to a garage seamed reasonable to me as most do a check for nothing.
Yes I have used the string method in the distant past and, no matter how much i tried the car just seemed to want to drift slightly left or right.
I understand that this was undoutably down to my own shortcomings as a diy mechanic.
My local garage gave me their old mirror and bubble guage tracking equipment as they have fitted a fancy laser machine.
I used it once and it made all the difference, measurements taken from the rims and not from the tyres. being able to see the actual angle on the guage for both sides. It still took a while, but for me it worked and the car has been great ever since.
I have looked at the other thread as suggested by customcart and am quite happy to agree that this method does work, Just not for me. lol.
Oh!! by the way I am a bit of a perfectionist and like things bang on. I understand that not everybody is the same and appologise if I came accross in the wrong mannor.

[Dave33]

no worries Andy,
I am a perefectionest too,hence the reason i take as long as it takes to get results.
And i tend to steer clear of garages with regards to classic cars and do the work myself.
Also as i tend to do alot of modifying,with regards to handling,and engine work,it would cost me a fortune if i visited a rolling road,or have the suspension set up by a garage every time i made an alteration.
Admittedly the way i suggested is a bit'heath robinson' compared to optical alignment equipement,but if it works thats really all that matters to myself.
if someone doesnt feel up to doing this way,i would reccomend only using a company that have a passion for classic and competition cars as they will be more helpful then most of the general garages.
I think 'slark race engineering' do suspension setup,so they would be my choice if i didnt want the hassle of doing it.
Maybe someone could suggest any others that do good work?
Dave

[Yoda]

Can i just say, i was not trying to cause any friction here either. the old school methods for most technical jobs do work if you have the knowledge and patience to perform them. Tracking, toe, camber. caster etc can all be done diy, and more importantly, the well known Mini crabbing can be sorted by adding in a third string directly through the centre of the car and all measurements centred from this datum line, to shim, shave and modify for perfection.

I hope this thread helps the original poster to understand how things work and bring some "old" knowledge to some of the younger members that seem to feel that professional Expensive procedures are necessary. We now seem to live in a wasteful financial world these days and lost some of that "lets have a go" attitude that owning a mini is surely all about.

Maybe a section could be made to address some old methods of setting up steering and suspension geometry ? Its not a black science as some people seem to think.

[liam1288]

yeah customcart, the posts helped me get an idea if i were to do it myself, i too dont really like taking my mini to a garage now as they aren't aware how to treat classics. like some try jack up by the floor! just dont trust them. im not a decent mechanic or anything so some things sound way out of my depth but i like to give them a try...good to learn new methods and old methods! though i didnt mess with it again, it was a bad drive last night, squeeking, running, knocking everytime i put the brakes on so i just set them to how they were before i tried to fix them. luckily i remembered how many times i rotated the ends ha ha
thanks though guys!

[Yoda]

Nothing on a mini is out of the question for diy except maybe machining work on the engine. all you need is time to research on here first, then google and you are good to go. you will find some things getting different opinions , as indeed has happened here! But, and its a big but, take the majority vote and "ave a go" its the best way to learn and there is loads of experience and knowledge on this forum, so use it. you will also get to know who to listen to and who is just repeating "what someone told them" and not actually having done the job themselves.

Edited by customcart, 30 June 2010 - 06:28 PM.

[Dave33]

liam,maybe i should have put this in before as it a safety factor..BUT what you just said about threads jogged my memory.
If your car is lowered to an certain extent you will need longer track rod ends as without these you will not have enough thread to safely support them.They are available from minispares and there not expensive.
also dont just adjust one side to get the required toe out,do a bit on both sides so you gradually creep up on the required amount.
You dont need to be an ace mechanic,brilliant with maths or understand every thrase thats used to describe technical aspects,just common sense,patience and are willing to learn.
A good easy to understand article section on all things mini related,is keith calvers website,'calvers corner',many hours of quite enlightening reading by a straight talking guy who knows his stuff.
Theres a link to his website on the 'minispares' website if you cant find it.
If you want to get more in depth,regarding the engine side of things then get yourself a copy of 'David Vizards' A series tuning book.
Customcart has got it spot on in my opinion,the mini was designed to be worked on by the home mechanic.
hth mate
and dont give up just take your time,
Dave

[Yoda]

I thank you for your kind comments guys. I have had mini's in one way shape or form since i was 17, and in those days you had no choice. there were situations like the biggest recession in history, the three day week, mass unemployment and loads of time available, I managed to aquire the first edition of Vizards tuning book and made good use of it. Keith Calvers articles are second to none and with these two sources of info and a willingness to learn i have produced everything from concourse, fast road, completely insane and really stupid cars. Needless to say, the really stupid ones were where i learned the most from. Has anyone else put an 1800 vanden plas engine in a mini? Stoopid!!!!!!! anyone else built a shortie from 5 separate cars? or driven half a mini legally on the road (the front half) all these really stooooooopid cars taught me mechanic's, body work, welding , steering and suspension tuning, engine building and tuning and just about everything i know about cars. even culminating in a ford crossflow 1860cc block from a capri, with top end (twin cam)off an old lotus and a home made engine/gearbox spacer because i could not afford to buy one! and then blowing up said engine on its first run. I have yet to drive another mini as fast as that was, and the parts may probably still be found in the undergrowth along the Swanley bypass

My point here, is that just with a few books, no money, breakers yards and an eagerness to learn, you can do anything. and the internet was some secret military communications device in those days, no websites or forums to confuse you, just common sense and ingenuity.

Oh and a lot of new friends on the journey.

Yes that was me and my younger brother in an orange clubman, broken down with a hole in two pistons on the M1 coming home from the 25th anniversary at Donnington park ! finished the journey on two cylinders, two removed spark plugs, some rubber hose and a coke bottle.

Was that really 25 years ago?

Nuff said.

[MRA]

If we didn't have our different views then just think how boring the Mini would have been

I don't think that any of the posts above are a cause of friction, however I have found the best way of reducing friction is to use a good old 10w40 sythetic oil