37 replies to this topic

[Dyna]

Yes you read it correctly. To make a long story short, I assume most of you on this site are classic car enthusiasts just like me. The Planning Authority (PA) has now granted the Local Planning Authority (LPA) the right of limiting total number of vehicles on the property I live at to six.

I currently live in a two story house with four bedrooms and a self contained annex consisting of a one bedroom flat for relatives. The plot that the house is standing on is 9600 sqft (60x160) and the house it self has an approximate footprint of 1600 sqft (including patios etc). You can easily (1*) park six very large cars in the driveway, two very large cars in the car port and one medium car in the garage. The house is located in the very south of outer London (Sutton Council).

The collection is currently bigger than that since I have a temporary garage in the backyard where I currently restomoding a 1958 Chevy Suburban and restoring a Mini Clubman estate. When the summer comes they will replace one of the daily drivers, a modern Volvo estate.

I’m writing since this case might become case “law” for the whole of UK and thereby limiting economical car ownership severely if you have neighbours or councils hostile to classic cars or cars in general.

I’m currently at the last stage and hope of overturning this. The PA has found that the LPA is right when they concluded that we breached planning law by having more than six cars. We now need to take this to the high court. If I should have any success of turning the decision around and get a second review by the PA.

If you are a lawyer or know one, that can help in planning law or high court procedures please do not hesitate to contact me. If I need to pay full lawyer fees driving this case forward it will cost me a fortune something I can’t really afford. If you think you can help in any other way please do not hesitate but contact me, I definitely need all the help I can get.

In order to prepare for the worst I for sure need any help I can get storing a few of my cars. Any out door storage on gravel or dry ground anywhere south of London for at least a few months would definitely help me a lot. I don’t want be in the position being forced to do a fire sale of my cars at great economical loss.

There is hope, since one issue might invalidate all of this totally. The local planning authority never served the owner (I only rent) of the house with the enforcement notice. They are legally bound to server all interested parties with an enforcement notice otherwise the enforcement notice isn’t valid. At my appeal to the PA I gave this as one of the reasons for the appeal. This reason was rejected by the PA since I the appellant had failed to provide sufficient proof that the owner wasn’t served. The reason was also rejected by the PA since the owner isn’t a major interested party. The failure to server might be the very ticket out of this but we will still need help with this in a high court. (2*)

No matter what we will try every angle possible to take this to the high court and have it overturned. At the moment we don’t know how and time will shortly run out so if you can help please as said before don’t hesitate to contact us.

There are also two questions in regards to the interpretation of the decision by the Planning Authority.

1: The LPA stated that the breach was in relation to “vehicle storage” in the enforcement notice now upheld by the PA. This makes you ask is the six car allowed counted as you are allowed to store six cars, and say park two more (your daily drivers)? Or is it six cars in total.

2: Is there any difference if they cars are garaged or not? What right has the LPA/PA to inspect your property (especially indoors) to make sure you don’t “store” more cars than allowed? Is the six cars limit, limiting the storage outside or the over all total number.

The legal question to how the law should be interpreted in regards to that there should be no “material change to the usage of any building or land within the cartilage of the dwellinghouse for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse” (3*) What is setting the limit to six cars, or X number of cars, or for that matter X number of garden gnomes, or X number of dogs or what every your into? The whole issue is so arbitrary that there must be some form of rectification done, otherwise every resident of this country is at risk being forcefully separated from his or her property depending on the attitude of the PA inspector towards his or her hobby.

Sincerely Dyna

1*If you squeeze you can have ten or so especially if they are smaller such as a Jaguar XJC , what size is a Mini?.

2* The reason is that owner is a major interested party since the owner is responsible for any fines if there is a breach of planning permission, It’s also the responsibility of the LPA to proof they severed all interested parties, it’s not the appellants responsibility to proof it from what I can understand.


3* Personally I’m pretty outraged to how fluffy a law can be written. It basically gives a carte blanche to any LPA/PA to find you in breach of the planning act no matter what you are doing on the property. Say that you for example live in a semidetached house of half the size of the property we live on. You make a two car garage in back yard which is accessible by a small drive way on the side of the building. You ae well with in planning authorities limit size wise for how big your garage can be with out needing permission, but you will now be 100% in breach of planning law since you have made “material change <snip> enjoyment of the dwellinghouse”

[danrock101]

I don't know anything as I'm just 18 but if you got a extra bedroom or 2, by say putting a bed in the loft, does that increase your council tax or is council tax down to how many people live at the house.
We've got 4 cars and 4 bedrooms + a comercial van so I assume that would count too, 2 cars should be going soon though anyway. I can understand it for houses without offstreet parking but if they're all on your drive then who cares? It's just getting harder and harder to own a car these days.

[Beej123]

Wasnt this removed earlier?

i still think its crazy how they think they can tell you what you can and cant put on your own property, its not like cars block light to other peoples gardens is it?

Its all about power!

[mattsbmw]

I too think this is a load of rubbish, and the OP is just trying to get his legal fees paid.

I suspect there is more to this than a simple owning too many cars.

Its like the council saying you can only have one TV per room,.

[littlemissmagic]

thats disgusting >.<
how can they say how many cars you can have? But the again, im not really surprised if this is what they are doing considering what has already been done

there is no freedom anymore

[Ethel]

I'd certainly mention Article 7 of the HRA. If you were entitled to store any number of cars when you put them there they can't ask you to remove them. You could always convert some to works of art, if they don't need to be taxed or sorned.


Make sure you can't afford to pay any costs if you do take it all the way to the High Court, it's only for the very rich or very brave.

[Dyna]

Wasnt this removed earlier?

i still think its crazy how they think they can tell you what you can and cant put on your own property, its not like cars block light to other peoples gardens is it?

Its all about power!

Ah that what happend. Do you know why it was removed? Did read the rules before I posted and didn't find that I was in violation. I didn't get a PM that it was removed either so I assumed some sort of error happend.

Sincerely Dyna

[danrock101]

don't know, I know my post isn't there when it was before, it's a conspiricy

[Dyna]

I'd certainly mention Article 7 of the HRA. If you were entitled to store any number of cars when you put them there they can't ask you to remove them. You could always convert some to works of art, if they don't need to be taxed or sorned.

Think the HumanRightsAct will be very hard to use. Anyways I think they see it that you where not entitled to store them hence you have to remove them. I'm although interested in anyone knowing if I could e.g. convert them to art. What would be required to convert them to art? I'm pretty sure they can't count one as not being a car since its just a shell at the moment and there by can't be defined as a car. Question being if anyone knows how to classify a car when a car isn't a car so to say.

Sincerely Dyna

Edited by Dyna, 06 January 2011 - 01:48 PM.

[Ethel]

They certainly wouldn't want to be registered with the DVLA in any way. I'm not sure I'd try these tactics in court, they're likely to think you're taking the mick, 'n rule they are cars regardless. Though it would make a nice news story if you fit a few out with sails & outboard motors and give a national paper a ring

I think you're right that the best legal tack, is to claim they've got the wrong guy - the owner is responsible for how his property is used, but do you want to be in breach of your tenancy agreement? *

Personally, I think you've got an uphill battle, the PA's and Judge will empathise more with whingeing neighbours, bothered about their property prices than your unconventional approach to private transport.

Do you remember the chavvy lottery winner, who bought a posh house and used the back garden for banger racing with his scummy friends? There might be some case law there. If you haven't already, read any legislation that's been quoted against you and google your socks off to find any existing cases. Since you're near London, you could spend a day in the British Library** to read through any legal manuals on planning law - afraid I wouldn't have a clue what they are though.


* I'd seek legal advice on this tack before you risk arguing it in court, try the online law forums and/or book an initial consultation with a suitable lawyer.

**You need a reader's pass and to ask for the books in advance so don't just turn up.


........ or how about adding more bedrooms

[Guess-Works.com]

Sounds to me like someone has complained to the council about the number of vehicles, especially those in a "Temporary Garage"...

You may find something in the deeds of the house.

[minimanclive]

While you're rebuilding a car in your garage at what point does it stop being a "car" and become a collection of parts?

You might not have a problem if you're storing car parts.

[mattsbmw]

So you have posted this AGAIN :?

Heres the orignal thread

http://www.theminifo...x...=177368&hl=

[Dyna]

The first post (this one) was remove or didn't show up, maybe I made a mistake but I could not find it 20 min later. Now it's back still don't get that one.

Sorry about any confusion I caused.

Sincerely Dyna

So you have posted this AGAIN :?

Heres the orignal thread

http://www.theminifo...x...=177368&hl=

[Dyna]

I don't know anything as I'm just 18 but if you got a extra bedroom or 2, by say putting a bed in the loft, does that increase your council tax or is council tax down to how many people live at the house.
We've got 4 cars and 4 bedrooms + a comercial van so I assume that would count too, 2 cars should be going soon though anyway. I can understand it for houses without offstreet parking but if they're all on your drive then who cares? It's just getting harder and harder to own a car these days.

Hi DanRock

Council tax is based on the value of the property not how many people that are living there. The phrase one car per bedroom is not to be taken literally but if you look at standards (as if you provided for say a foster kid) there can be seven people living in the property I rent. That is two couples and three kids, giving how long kids live with their parents this means that there can be seven people with drivers license but they can't own one car each since they then are breaching planning law. This is just how nuts this is.. The Planning Authority shoudl also consider how cars are parked/stored in the neighborhood, they didn't do that since two houses up the street they store/park four cars on a propety half the size of the one I rent, further more about 20 houses down the road they store/park eitght cars on a propety half the size of the one I rent..

Sincerely Dyna