27 replies to this topic

[davexdavexdave]

right my car will not go into gear if the engine is on. but with the engine off i can put it into gear without the clutch. then turn the enginge on with the clutch down and the car will stay still and pull away as if the clutch were fine. however when i then go to change gear it will go into neutral but no further. and then will not even go back into first gear untill i have stopped and turned the engin off. i have checked my fluid levels and there all fine. the day before all of this happened the clutch started slipping. can some one IE "DAN" (because he seems to have the know how) tell me what the hell is wrong and if i replace the clutch will my problem be solved. its urgent!!!!

[kada1980]

The springs on the clutch have snapped

[Dan]

I'll try to answer all the questions you've put in the various threads you have running about this at the moment here.
What's broken?
How does it feel? If the spring was snapped then there'd be no feel to the clutch at all and you would be able to push the pedal to the floor with almost no resistance. Also there would be an almighty racket and the noise of things breaking expensively when you turn the engine over.

I find it unlikely that the spring has broken, when they do break they tend to take bits of the clutch cover with them on their way out of the car. You say that you can start the car with the box in gear and the clutch disengaged without the car moving. That means the clutch itself is actually working. I reckon it's your slave cylinder that's gone. They are very well known for doing this at the worst time. What I would do myself if I absolutely had to have it working this weekend would be to buy all the parts you might need (slave cylinder, 3 piece clutch kit, clutch hose, clutch fluid, clutch arm, plunger, graphite grease etc.) and keep the receipts and don't open anything you don't need to. Start the work by supporting the engine on blocks and remove the left engine mount and clutch cover. Now you'll be able to see if the clutch is still in one piece, if it is then check out the hydraulics and release system. Change over the cylinder and put it all back together to see if it works. If it does then return the unused stuff, if not then change the clutch. The clutch kit is by far the most expensive thing you'll be buying so if you don't use that you'll save quite a lot of cash. You'll need quite a bit of time if you haven't done it before and some tools that aren't everyday items.

Check out Guessworks excellent FAQ on clutches. It's one of the first he did so it'll be at the back of the list I should think.

If your car has it's original engine and gearbox then you have a Verto/Valeo type clutch.

[davexdavexdave]

THANK YOU DAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats exactly what i wanted to hear. the clutch does go down but it feels normal and theres no noises so i take it the springs are ok. i'll try the other things you said and get back to you!!

[davexdavexdave]

oh yeah and why did the green flag bloke tell me it was definately the pressure plate and how do i tell its not the pressure plate????

[davexdavexdave]

Hi Dan, can I expand on this a little further still please? Firstly whilst I'd hoped myself that it may have been the slave cylinder initially? I ended up partially dismissing this as there appears to be considerable movement (perhaps 4-5mm) from the clutch mechanism under the bonnet when the pedal is pushed. It was suggested to me by my father that I might also see an oil leak from the slave cylinder or hear it "slurpin" if it were leaking? One further point is that the Haynes manual makes mention of and shows a piccy of a return stop and my engine / clutch doesn't seem to have one! Does this indicate a possible engine change at some time in the vehicles life?

Thanks mate.

[Dan]

Where is this travel in the clutch system? Is it at the cylinder end of the arm or the plunger end? If the plunger is being pushed far enough then the throw out stop will touch the clutch cover to stop it going any further. If that doesn't touch then it's not being pushed properly. When the slave goes you don't always get any signs other than it just not working. It is possible for the fluid you send down the line to just get pumped around inside the cylinder when the seals have failed without any of it escaping.

The only way you can be certain about what's wrong with it is to take it apart and find out. My opinion is that it isn't the spring. If the spring was failed then it would still be possible to de-clutch. It would be clutch engagement that would give the problem not disengagement. But then I could be wrong. I'll see if I can get someone else to add their opinion.

Green Flag geeza means the spring, on most cars the spring and pressure plate are part of the same unit. Mini's are different, the clutch is inside out. It's just terminology. How often do you think he deals with hydraulic clutches these days? Almost every car in the world has a cable clutch now.

The return stop is only fitted to the pre-Verto clutch system, you don't have one.

[davexdavexdave]

cool thanks dan!!

[Guess-Works.com]

Dans pretty much hit the nail on the head... If the spring had gone on the clutch then there would be nothing to hold the pressure plate and flywheel together and thus you would end up with no drive. If the plate had welded itself to the flywheel the complete opposite would happen, and you would not be able to start the car..

So, the failure is in the operating mechanism..

Have you checked the fluid level, and bled the system through... ??

Once you have done that, do as Dan has suggested and see how much movement of the plunger there is, it should move from it's rested position to a point where the stop nuts hit the 'wok', if it does not then the slave cylinder is not pushing far enough.

If so, then it's likely that there is a failure in the hydralics.

If you do get full movement, and the clutch is still not disengaging then it could be the clutch release bearing which has collapsed, and is not applying the pressure to the clutch, this is a very simple job as it's only held on by a rubber O ring but will necessitate the removal of the clutch cover (wok) from the side of the engine.. can be done in car and is not too fiddly, as explained above.

I hope that eases you suspicions...

[minidaves]

did have one the other week that killed the top hat bit of the clutch, that was interesting

dave

[Sprocket]

This is realy confusing.

Let me think about it for a while and i'll get back to you :cheese:

Edit: Confusing as in clutch slipping and then not dissengaging fully

Edited by Mini Sprocket, 01 February 2006 - 12:12 AM.

[Sprocket]

did have one the other week that killed the top hat bit of the clutch, that was interesting

dave

Holly C**p, thats exactly what i was thinking

Siezed release bearing causing excesive wear on the thrust sleave :smartass:

What ever it is I recon its a take it apart and see.

[Sprocket]

Oh and one other thing, is there any oil dripping from the hole that has a split pin through it, at the very bottom of the fly wheel housing. If there is, big chance the primary gear seal is leaking which might be part of the slippy clutch problem.

[kada1980]

I had a similar problem but on a peugeot (*yellow human water* of c£$p)

Engine off select any gear fine and depress/release clutch

Engine on depress and release clutch but not select gear,

You could select gear and start the car and the car would move slightley with clutch depressed,

Took it to bits and there is 6 or so springs inside the clutch and they were shagged.

Good luck

Let us know how you get on.

[Dan]

There is only one big diaphragm spring that holds the clutch on in just about any car now, the 6 springs mounted around the clutch disc are anti-judder springs and do nothing to make the clutch work. The anti judder springs were probably knackered for ages and you didn't notice as they take a real hammering in use. You probably had a failed CRB that you didn't even notice was broken and replaced as part of the three piece clutch kit, fixing it by default.

Dave,

If you are going to buy all the parts you might need as above then also get an extra CRB (clutch release bearing) and its retaining O-ring and a new top hat thrust sleeve in case it's these parts you need to change. Then you can take back the complete clutch kit unopened if you don't need to touch the clutch (as you probably won't), or take back the extra CRB if you do replace the whole lot. You'll have all the parts you may need and still spend only what you need to.