23 replies to this topic

[mk3 Cooper S]

I agree with what you say if it has a proven rally history or simular but otherwise in is a ringer or illigiimate shell swap and you are just paying for the logbook.

I am torn on this one.
I agree no boot boad brackets but a genuine looking remote gear hole and Piano hinge windows etc. My gut instinct says re-shell.

Either way, by the time you have bought the trim , sourced and engine and restored it you are going to be in to the best part f £15 K for a car with no history or original parts?

Pay your money and take your choise.

[Cooperman]

I agree with what you say if it has a proven rally history or simular but otherwise in is a ringer or illigiimate shell swap and you are just paying for the logbook.

I am torn on this one.
I agree no boot boad brackets but a genuine looking remote gear hole and Piano hinge windows etc. My gut instinct says re-shell.

Either way, by the time you have bought the trim , sourced and engine and restored it you are going to be in to the best part f £15 K for a car with no history or original parts?

Pay your money and take your choise.

It would not be an illegal shell swap as it was obviously done a long time ago before the regulations changed and when it was legal. There were ordinary road cars which were re-shelled due to road accident damage. The issue seems to be when it was done. For example, if there was a 1964 'S' which was 3rd party insured and had a crash in 1967, then the owner might well have got hold of an 850 shell, re-built the 'S' into that shell and thought nothing of it at the time. There is no basic difference between any Mk.1 shell except the hole in the floor and the boot board brackets. The classic car movement as a whole is currently lobbying the gov't to allow shell changes with retention of original identity.
A 'ringer' is a stolen car with its identity changed to that of another car. I once bought one of those - a Cortina 1600E - in 1971!
To many, a Mk.1 (or whatever) is genuine so long as it is mechanically correct in all respects. It won't have all original parts after almost 50 years, so let's accept a re-built one in original configuration. Those 'works' Minis which command huge sums were nearly all built up at the Comps. Dept. from parts off the line and the bodyshell was just another part number for a sub-assembly.
I know if I crashed my '64 Cooper 'S' I would have to re-shell it with a 2nd hand shell as new Mk.1 shells are not available and I would not accept just breaking it for spares.
There is a danger in becoming too 'purist' in these matters. We just need to take a view of what is reasonable and what a car represents as a part of motoring with a classic car.
Consider what is going to happen in 20 years oir so. All those highly modified Minis that members on here have done will be worth a fortune in original condition and there will be a lot of money spent putting them back to original standard condition to realise a high return. In some cases re-shelling will be necessary, especially when 'flip-fronts', etc, have been fitted.

[mab01uk]

There is a danger in becoming too 'purist' in these matters. We just need to take a view of what is reasonable and what a car represents as a part of motoring with a classic car.

Totally agree.............there are very few classic/vintage/veteran/works cars or motorcycles of any description which have a totally documented and proven 'throughbred 'history beyond all doubt and with all the major original components still in place. Having been around Mini's since the 1960's I personally know of many now highly valued Mk1/2/3 Cooper/Cooper S which were rebuilt or restored in the 1970's/80's legally with new or more often secondhand bodyshells. As said before many of these 'mint' donor shells were often formerly 'one owner little old lady Mini 850 Automatics' and as 'Cooperman' says if you know what details to add or modify only a few 'anorak purists' would ever know or care and they still represent another classic car that may otherwise not have been saved for future generations of enthusiasts.

I also support the Classic monthly 'Reshell or Die' campaign.................just because the DVLA changed the rules a few years back does not mean they were right or properly considered the implications for restored classic cars.
Sign here:
http://www.classicsmonthly.com/2011/02/11/reshell-or-die-sign-our-petition/

Edited by mab01uk, 16 November 2011 - 06:38 PM.

[Artful Dodger]

after all of what everyone just said.... ( mini blasphemy going to be commited! ) id rather the escort 8)

Edited by MiniclubmanGT, 16 November 2011 - 06:48 PM.

[Cooperman]

I once built a 1071 'S' as an international historic rally car. I bought a load of junk which used to be a 1963 1071 'S', together with a V5. It was so bad that I sourced a 1964 Mk.1 shell from an 850 and this was professionally re-built with a built-in full FIA cage and other strengthening. The hole in the floor was measured from the scrap shell and the boot board brackets removed and transferred. Then the car was built. One funny thing was the front sub-frame, which was in good condition, so I got it sandblasted, did some strengthening and re-built it will all new bushes, etc. Unfortunately, before I could fit it my other rally 'S',a 1275, was involved in a big accident on the Pirelli Marathon in Italy. To get it fixed quickly I needed a new sub-frame and, there on my workshop floor, was this newly built one, so into the 1275 it went. The replacement brand-new one for the 1275 thus went into the 1071 with all the 1275 suspension and brake parts!
The engine was based on a 1275 'S' block which was bored out +0.020" and Karl Schmidt pistons fitted to the rods I already had, the block having 0.257" skimmed from the deck. I managed to buy a brand new 1071 crank and Mini Sport did me a fully flowed head at 11:1 C.R. Cam was a 649. Everything was balanced and lightened.
The gearbox was with the bits I got, but it was rebuilt with SC CR gears anbd a 4.1:1 final drive ratio.
Windows were perspex except for a new laminated screen
Everything was done in accordance with the correct 1963 Homologation Papers to then 'Group 2' spec.
Full rally prep made it a super car and I did the Belgian Historic Rally with my old friend Bill Rogers driving. He flew from his home in Los Angeles to drive with me and we won our class and got 7th overall, the only Mini beating us being a 1275 driven by my good friend the late John Handley.
So far so good. I was asked to take the car to a Mini Cooper Register regional meeting where, after it was admired by many, someone, after being told how it came to be, said loudly, "Well, that's not a Cooper 'S' then!" "No, I replied, I suppose it's an 'effing' Lotus Cortina!" To me it was and is a true Cooper 'S' and it now lives with my friend Bill Rogers just outside Los Angeles. I get to drive it whenever I visit him and last month he won his class in a sprint at Camarillo Airfield in it.
Is it a Cooper 'S' then to you guys on here?
I've posted this to illustrate what did and does go on in classic motorsport.

[mk1coopers]

"What is a Cooper S" is always a sticky subject, I started off with a MK3 850 Mini, painted it island blue and white, and fitted reverse rim Cooper wheels, a great first car that slowly evolved over the years, first the was the MK2 S interior with the door cards sprayed black to match, then came the Riley Elf chrome window surrounds, out went the 850 and in went a 1300 GT block,544 cam, with a 1275GT gearbox (it's a rod change shell), S running gear, spax suspension and Minilite wheels, then twin tanks, a bit more power from a Slark Head and twin H4's, MK2 boot lid and S badges, was it as fast as an S, yes, would I ever consider it a Cooper S, no. For me a car needs to have a continuous history, which no matter what has happened to it over the years it's still existed in some shape or form, what I don't like is people who have built cars from logbooks only then pass them off as the real deal, (and we all know there are a few famous cars that have sold that were nothing more than paperwork to start with) trying to get as much as they can rather than being honest and selling the car on its merits, one person is well known to have built cars and sent the same car to different countries using the original paper work for the next 'build'

Edited by mk1coopers, 16 November 2011 - 08:09 PM.

[mab01uk]

(and we all know there are a few famous cars that have sold that were nothing more than paperwork to start with)

It should also be remembered that many of the now very valuable BMC 'Works' Mini's regularly appeared on 1960's rallies while running with swapped bodyshells, registration plates/chassis numbers and with either Austin or Morris badges to suit whatever were the requirements of the team and BMC marketing at the time.........

[mk1coopers]

(and we all know there are a few famous cars that have sold that were nothing more than paperwork to start with)

It should also be remembered that many of the now very valuable BMC 'Works' Mini's regularly appeared on 1960's rallies while running with swapped bodyshells, registration plates/chassis numbers and with either Austin or Morris badges to suit whatever were the requirements of the team and BMC marketing at the time.........

I'm sure that happens today as well, having a competion life is hard on a car, how many new MINI rally cars have had 1 WRC on them by now?, there were at least 2 at the Goodwood FOS . What people want to see is the 'before' pictures of these cars, I've got no problem with the Works cars, and who am I to say 'your cars not right', build it, enjoy it, then be honest when you sell it so that when it's on it's second or third owner they know what they have bought, one car that was restored a few years ago was nothing more than paperwork, but it was done in public with people knowing what had happened, the original owner was very honest about it, it sold for a 6 figure sum (which shocked him) when he was done with it, sadly since its be sold on at auction several times since its suddenly become the car that did XYZ rally ect ect in their descriptions, however it's never made as much money as it did when original owner sold it (though we live in somewhat different financial times now the 'right' classic cars seem to still be makeing good money as at least you can enjoy them rather than getting very little interest on your cash)

[Cooperman]

Different people have different perceptions of what is a genuine product ot model or version.
My background was originally as an aircraft design engineer. So, in my perception, if a product is made to the original drawings, from the correct materials and if the configuration is as designed, then that product is the sum of those parts as designed. So, if a basic Mini bodyshell is built with Cooper 'S' parts - original or new manufactured to the original drawings - and the entire car is as the Cooper 'S' design then it is, really, a Cooper 'S'. It would not, IMHO, be a genuine car if say a 1964 Cooper 'S' were to be (legally) re-shelled with a Mk5 Heritage shell as the shell design is different from the original.
I know there have been a lot of Supermarine Spitfires virtually built from the original drawings and they are considered to be Spitfires. The same applies to the new steam engine 'Tornado', a Class A1 Pacific. It was built from the original drawings and is considered to be a genuine A1-class locomotive ('bmcecosse' would probably confirm this). It's not considered a 'ringer' or 'non-genuine'.
We are, as I said earlier, in danger of becoming too 'purist'. A Mk.1 'S' re-built and restored into a Mk.1 shell is still a Mk.1 Cooper 'S'.