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#16 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:19 AM

  Only that someone doing this as an amateur would be quite likely to get it wrong, and the possible consequences could either be very bad or just incredibly irritating.  Potential is exactly the problem, as I suspect you know.  If they end up with one end of the cable tied in to the PME and bury a rod at the other end of it without properly isolating them then it would cause all sorts of problems.  This would be easy to do by mistake if you buy parts from a DIY shed and follow the instructions to make up a gland at both ends of the cable.  The potential at the substation where the PME ground comes from is not going to be similar to the potential at the garden shed, and will be far less dependant on the weather.  The house might not even be PME, without knowing the installation and being able to run the numbers it's not something that can be guessed at (neither is the appropriate size of the cable, it might need to be 25mm for all anyone here knows).  Yes ideally the shed (or especially a greenhouse or metal shed) will be TT but if it's not far from the house, it's a timber shed, and the calculations hold up for disconnect times the best thing is to extend the protection.  In my case my brick outbuildings are very close to the house and it would easily be possible to have hold of something plugged in to both buildings at once, so the ground potential of both must be equal.  Also I have extended the smoke alarm circuit into the buildings which is wired back into the main panel and not to the outbuilding panel.  So the zone has to be contiguous.

 

  Also, as said above don't put TV, phone or anything else in the same duct as power.  If you really want some run a second duct 500mm away from the first.  In my case I have SWA cat5 and SWA RG59 running to my outbuildings, along with various SWA small cables carrying things like the doorbell circuit, heating controls and other SELV junk out there.  It can all be done with a bit of work.  The trench doesn't have to be 750mm, only 450.  750mm is for drinking water.  If you don't fancy all the digging and you know what's under the lawn rent a Ditch Witch.  Expensive but amazing tools like ground cutting chainsaws, designed specifically to cut a deep but narrow trench quickly. If you do the digging, the spark won't charge you as much!  Not all SWA is actually designed or suitable for direct burial so a duct may prove to be necessary rather than just a good choice.  And don't confuse SWA with SWB, braid is not armour.

 

  I'm not an electrician or part P but I was once a data wireman at a large engineering headquarters complex and I know what is involved.  It is tricky to get right without experience and it is potentially dangerous which is why almost all outside work is under part P now.  I used to spend my days dragging 320 pair SWA cable that weighs 1/2 ton per 100m through ducts and under roads and buildings, working with the sparks to get power to our poles and boxes so I do understand this stuff and I know how to calculate it all and assess the risks.  But I don't have the ticket to let me do it, so I don't because I quite like my house insurance to be valid and not to be in jail.  Part P is taken very seriously now.

I expect you also know that PME is really quite a cheap con. I've seen and been expected to sign off installations where a customer supplied with an overhead (and now redundant leading and lagging phases) requested a meter position change. The jointers turned up, scratched there hoops and laid a piece of PME to the new meter position. The customer was earth spiked up OK, but had additional hazards of a steel oil storage tank and copper supply and to add insult to injury also moved the water main so his old standby of a bond to the lead supply was also gone as the alterations were done in HDPE. 

The two jointers looped the neutral in the customers supply head to the earth bar, checked the supply and put the fuse back in - they sat and scratched their hoops again when the RCD (300mA) wouldn't stay in. They couldn't see that their own neutral was being pulled up relative to ground - could have been phase imbalance or many other things - their answer? Disconnect the customer's copperbond from the earth block and try again - ah OK now......

Except on problem - if ya tried to turn the fire valve off on the oil tank, you got a tingle - the whole house was floating, including the oil tank, sat on strips of DPC membrane.

I can assure you that a skinny 6mm earth to a good bonding rod or plate is better than a missing 25mm one. If the PME installation is done correctly, then the board is responsible for the bond at the incomer and the cutout will have a neutral link to earth in it. It's the only reason PME can be made to work, it's like income tax, everyone has to be in it.

 

Regarding data and signal cables with shield or armour, you start yet another game again - ideally you only want to be earthing at one end, start earthing at both, and you can end up with some lovely earth loops and induced signals. 

I've spent many happy hours on Profibus networks where the shield of the data cable ideally should be grounded as it enters the panel to prevent damage to PLC's etc in the event of an earth fault.

 

Anyway, back to the OP, if the guy is hell bent on doing it himself, then better he gets heavy warnings to start with. In my experience people will go ahead whether it's law or not.

I've seen what appeared to be a lovely pyro install on a house, all neat and clipped at 200mm - take the lid off the first box and it was Black and Decker lawn mower cable.



#17 Dan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:17 AM

I expect you also know that PME is really quite a cheap con.

 

  Absolutely, certainly when upgrading an older distribution system.  When my current house was rewired I had the meter moved and the surveying guy from the board said the new one would be PME once it had been moved while the original was an old lead cable TN-S or something like that (I asked specifically because I wanted to know what the system would be so that my spark and I could work out what to do for my outside installations).  They didn't however dig up all the cables back to the substation and install earth grids all the way along for me funnily enough!  They don't bury a rod at every house they splice the new cable onto, so how do they get the earth points for the system when they upgrade like this?  They could have buried a rod in the pit I dug for them to splice but they didn't, just made a normal potted joint to the old cable with the new one.  Or do they just call it PME if the readings are low enough?  And then what happens it there is a broken DNO neutral as you said above?  Ultimately though you just have to go by what they say they have supplied you with.

 

  Have to be careful with earthing the armour on any small cables like cat5 or TV that you aren't making a SELV into a PELV.  Since in my case it's just my house and the cables don't run into large frames or anything like that, and are underground for just 5 feet under a patio, its safer just to leave them ungrounded.  The big ones I used to deal with were very much different!  The glands were scary huge.

 

  And sorry, above when I said there could be an earth conductor problem with an earth rod at the end of PME I meant TN-S but I guess you figured that out.



#18 Shep76S

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:56 PM

http://electrical.th...16/complete.cfm

Read and digest.

#19 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 02:59 AM

 

I expect you also know that PME is really quite a cheap con.

 

  Absolutely, certainly when upgrading an older distribution system.  When my current house was rewired I had the meter moved and the surveying guy from the board said the new one would be PME once it had been moved while the original was an old lead cable TN-S or something like that (I asked specifically because I wanted to know what the system would be so that my spark and I could work out what to do for my outside installations).  They didn't however dig up all the cables back to the substation and install earth grids all the way along for me funnily enough!  They don't bury a rod at every house they splice the new cable onto, so how do they get the earth points for the system when they upgrade like this?  They could have buried a rod in the pit I dug for them to splice but they didn't, just made a normal potted joint to the old cable with the new one.  Or do they just call it PME if the readings are low enough?  And then what happens it there is a broken DNO neutral as you said above?  Ultimately though you just have to go by what they say they have supplied you with.

 

  Have to be careful with earthing the armour on any small cables like cat5 or TV that you aren't making a SELV into a PELV.  Since in my case it's just my house and the cables don't run into large frames or anything like that, and are underground for just 5 feet under a patio, its safer just to leave them ungrounded.  The big ones I used to deal with were very much different!  The glands were scary huge.

 

  And sorry, above when I said there could be an earth conductor problem with an earth rod at the end of PME I meant TN-S but I guess you figured that out.

 

The board know it's ******* and that PME needs to be a complete installation from sub star point to every consumer. They rely upon the fact that the more installations they have with PME, the more individual consumers will contribute to the earthing network.

 

The addition of PME to a TNS network is rubbish - should a neutral fail in a local joint box box then by definition the neutral will try and float to phase potential, bring up the consumer's earthing arrangements - in a case like this the consumer would be better off with a two wire system and no ECC, just an ELCB. 

As said to me many years back "son, the neutral can be a killer"...and the old boy was right -we know that phase is phases, earth should be earth, but when neutral and earth start getting shared, should a neutral fail there is a real danger to consumers.



#20 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:04 AM

It doesn't tell me anything I don't already know thanks. :-)

 

TT system
One possibility the electrical contractor may decide upon
is to supply the garage from a spare way in the consumer
unit and make the small installation in the garage part of
a TT system (fig 3). A local earth electrode must be
provided at the garage.


#21 Dan

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:47 AM

The board know it's ******* and that PME needs to be a complete installation from sub star point to every consumer. They rely upon the fact that the more installations they have with PME, the more individual consumers will contribute to the earthing network.

 

  This is what I find odd.  In my case, as I said they didn't fit a rod or a grid.  My house is fed by a plastic water main (original to the '50s, one of the first HDPE rather than modern MDPE pipes) as is every house in the street and I believe in the whole area.  My gas meter was also moved and the gas board moved it with plastic pipe as they prefer to do now.  So where is the earth at my house?  It's in the substation still, just like it was when it was TN-S.  No matter how many houses they have converted to PME in this street, there will be a very poor earth network if they have treated each house the same.  They are relying on everyone's gas main to earth the network but the gas board presumably don't know that and just make changes as they see fit.  Essentially the extent of the conversion work is to put a sticker on the cutout that says 'PME'.  As it happens when I had new gas pipes extended into the shed the plumber did it with metal pipe in a way that I'm not certain is entirely correct, and as is required this is earthed directly back to the MET with 10mm where it enters each building, so there is actually some earthing here but the board don't know that.  They didn't do any testing to ground when they moved the meter.  They just fed the cable to the new meter box and let my spark hook up to it, did the live work and left.



#22 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:07 AM

Board are cheating. They lash a bit of concentric about he place and call it PME. Instead of following the spirit of PME to the letter, they rely on trying to bond enough neutrals to earth at the customers premises instead of tying down the neutrals themselves as is required.

 

As for earth loop impedance testing - most of the jointers wouldn't have a clue. The guys are skilled at what they do, but they aren't electrical engineers.

 

As part of my time as an engineer with the board I spent some time with the high voltage boys (only up to 32 kV) on long and short stick work. Ultimately I signed off on the completed installation and put the fuses back in. These guys get a little more money than meter readers, yet can change an 11kV pole and crucifix live.

 

I'd tell you a story about a pair of farm cottages having a transformer change. Normally two single houses will have two phases and a neutral overhead.

When the supply was reinstated, one little old lady came outside to complain that nothing worked, the other was complaining that her hoover had eaten it's way down to the floor boards and the fridge was smoking....yep....one house had two neutrals and the other a leading and a lagging phase.



#23 Dan

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

  I like 11Kv cables.  Whenever I had to fit some quite early fibre into buildings it couldn't hold its own weight for more than 3 feet vertically (before it was wrapped in Kevlar). So to get it up the steam risers all the way to roof-top data centres it was the 11Kv lines I used to climb with the loop on my shoulder, tying it off every 2 foot.  They are nice and strong and easy to get hold of.  But climbing 12 floors from the basement to the roof inside a duct with steam pipes doing slow work like that makes you sweat.  I was younger then!



#24 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:39 AM

You wouldn't like the new ones - XLPE with no armor. All that separates you from a curly perm is the grounding braid. 

I saw the results of a drunken linesman (Hello Mark.....) putting a climbing spike through one. Amazingly he was relatively unfizzed.

 

Working on 11000 volt and above is nice. Even now we generate at 16kV and sync the turbines to city power before changing over - the breakers are air or spring operated and make a hell of a bang when they throw in. The steam turbines are amazing - you can stand inside the acoustic cover and there really is very little to hear on a 10 MW set working flat out - the last project I was on was burning just under 1000 tonnes of coal a day for private use. Generating steam at 100 bar and 490C.



#25 Dan

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:55 AM

  I've seen some breakers that you have to wear body armour and a fire suit to open, and they have you on a line to pull you (or what's left of you) clear if needed!

 

  Where I was working last year in Wales we were next to a mystery factory that had 2 of it's own jet engine powered gensets running at full chat all day, every day.  The fat little things that have the jet pointing at the sky, like they used to have at the BBC for backup.  Incredibly noisy.  God knows what they were doing in there to need all that, possibly smelting aluminium.



#26 Shep76S

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 05:52 PM

http://electrical.th...16/complete.cfm
Read and digest.

It doesn't tell me anything I don't already know thanks. :-)
 
TT system
One possibility the electrical contractor may decide upon
is to supply the garage from a spare way in the consumer
unit and make the small installation in the garage part of
a TT system (fig 3). A local earth electrode must be
provided at the garage.

I think your thinking is flawed. By adding an additional earth rod to a possible PME system you will be making the installation more dangerous, not less. Inthe event of a neutral/earth loss in the system further upstream, neutral currents may be diverted through your new rod, possibly from several properties.
Also as the neutral under fault conditions will be elevated above earth potential, there is a shock risk a you leave the shed/ building due to step potentials around he rod.
Either export the PME ifs here are no metallic services, or TT. (As per the document link)

Someone needs to go back to school.

#27 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:28 AM

 

 

http://electrical.th...16/complete.cfm
Read and digest.

It doesn't tell me anything I don't already know thanks. :-)
 
TT system
One possibility the electrical contractor may decide upon
is to supply the garage from a spare way in the consumer
unit and make the small installation in the garage part of
a TT system (fig 3). A local earth electrode must be
provided at the garage.

I think your thinking is flawed. By adding an additional earth rod to a possible PME system you will be making the installation more dangerous, not less. Inthe event of a neutral/earth loss in the system further upstream, neutral currents may be diverted through your new rod, possibly from several properties.
Also as the neutral under fault conditions will be elevated above earth potential, there is a shock risk a you leave the shed/ building due to step potentials around he rod.
Either export the PME ifs here are no metallic services, or TT. (As per the document link)

Someone needs to go back to school.

 

 

 

You obviously haven't read a word of the conversation between myself and Dan.

 

"The board know it's ******* and that PME needs to be a complete installation from sub star point to every consumer. They rely upon the fact that the more installations they have with PME, the more individual consumers will contribute to the earthing network.

 

The addition of PME to a TNS network is rubbish - should a neutral fail in a local joint box box then by definition the neutral will try and float to phase potential, bring up the consumer's earthing arrangements - in a case like this the consumer would be better off with a two wire system and no ECC, just an ELCB. 

As said to me many years back "son, the neutral can be a killer"...and the old boy was right -we know that phase is phases, earth should be earth, but when neutral and earth start getting shared, should a neutral fail there is a real danger to consumers."

 

 

What the hell is that? Scotch mist? Are you an apologist for the board?
As for go back to school - 
if the neutral is floating significantly, wouldn't the real danger become apparent in the home? Sink is cross bonded....but what about the aluminium windows? Aunty leans across the sink to open the window and ends up playing her harp. What about the gas installation? Man comes to read the meter and the meter is live as it has a plastic supply.
 
How about the house copperbond? Won't that get charged? same danger there I think.
 
How about this.... Studies undertaken by National Grid found the average net current in a sample of underground 400 V distribution circuits in urban areas to be 3.6 A (at the point where they left the substation), which on average was 15% of the neutral current.

Any comments on that? Perhaps you need to take the Board back to school as PME doesn't work - I'm fairly sure however that I don't need to go back to school.

If you're looking to make snippy comments, try someone else.



#28 Shep76S

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:25 AM

I give up, hopefully you are in Indonesia and not practising your art in the UK.

#29 Shep76S

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

As for windows creating a fault path, are you stuck in the 15 th edition? How can there be a fault path??

Bored of this now.

#30 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

You can't read can you? What fault path? Who mentioned "fault path" ? - Earth path through Aluminium windows, perfectly possible - why not try? pop a phase wire in your mouth, get the old rubber slipflops on, and touch an aluminium frame, what do you suppose the prospective earth fault current would be? 30mA? more?

 

And no need for pathetic insults, just stick to the facts. PME is a joke, and in the majority of cases customers would be better with just a TT installation if no TNS

 

I can assure you that I can work as an Engineer in the UK any time I wish....but I much prefer the sunshine where I am. 

 

Where did you get the attitude from? demoted as a jointer to a meter reader?






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