Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

D.vizard Tuning Bl's A Series And Twin Carbs


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#46 Captain Mainwaring

Captain Mainwaring

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,712 posts
  • Location: Indonesia
  • Local Club: Surabaya Mini Club

Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:57 PM

Ah for once I do know a fact, take a circle of two square inches and 2 one square inch circles. Both have when fully uncovered a total surface of 2 square inches. However, as your butterflies open up on both setups, until you reach a certain point the two smaller circles will show a larger surface area than the larger one. 

 

This is a fact, is it relevant? Not sure.  :proud:

 

I suppose it would be relevant as you slowly open the throttle, the two small holes would let more air through.

 

 

For a given throttle disk opening the free area of two single carbs would be bigger than a single of the same CSA - trouble is, the wall friction is greater, and in anycase the throttle is down to the driver - he wants faster, he gives it some more mortgage on the pedal. 

The biggest amount of control on a single damper is between 0 and about 60% open, between 60 and 100% the air volume doesn't actually change that much, so if you like you throttle pedal is far from linear in it's action. If it was linear then the driver would feel much more urge at the top of the pedal travel.

 

Surely the rate of flow depends on the demands of the engine - if you are sucking 100 litres a minute it won't matter whether it's its through one or two orifices as long as they have the same total area. You could be stuffing Toblerones into a cardboard box, it would make no difference if you had 2 triangular holes or a bigger square hole that accepted two at a time. You'd have to push chocolate at the same rate to fill the box in the same time.

 

Of course air is elastic, if chocolate was too (and you were pulling, like an engine) the additional friction in the triangular holes would stretch your Toblerones more resulting in a lower choccy yield (by weight).

 

You've lost me over the piston mass - it's waiting for the air in the suction chamber to get out of the way and that has considerably less mass that needs to be accelerated by the force created by the venturi pressure differential. The more favourable the piston's mass to surface area ratio the quicker it will accelerate upwards under a given suction chamber vacuum.

 

 

(I apologise to any Swiss Choccy enthusiasts for not recognising a brace of Toblerones would actually constitute a rhomboid other than a square.)

 

it does matter though. Because there is much more surface area to the walls of the two smaller carbs compared to the walls of a single bigger carb of the same cross sectional area. Wall friction is what will create a differential pressure (like an orifice plate) and since the flow rate along a closed pipe is directly proportional to the square root of the pressure drop or differential pressure between two points....

 

Since we know that DP is directly proportional to the surface circumference of the orifice divided by the CSA, and we also know that the flow is that same system is directly proportional to the sqrt of the pressure drop, then we can substitute in some numbers and see that the max flow in a single carb of CSA x will be larger than themax  flow in two single carbs of the same CSA because the DP (pressure drop) across the carbs will be higher in the twins.

Your twins will be more responsive at low to mid speed because the increased DP helps the enrichment, at high speed, the single wins because it will flow more air.



#47 Ethel

Ethel

    ..is NOT a girl!

  • TMF Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,419 posts
  • Local Club: none

Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:54 AM

No, to drive the car along at the same initial speed requires the same mass of fuel/air mixture in the cylinders (that will need to get there via the same cylinder head) our SU carburettors are designed to alter their own CSA above the jet and use the resulting DP to lift the needle to create the required size of jet orifice for the depression above the jet. 2 smaller carbs would need to meet the same demand (fuel/air mass in the cylinders) so would have lifted their pistons accordingly. Their DP characteristics will have required them to lift their pistons higher and their needles will have needed profiling to deliver the optimum fuelling for the depression that results from the required flow being achieved to put the necessary fuel/air mass in the cylinders. For acceleration we are concerned with the rate at which it can increase the flow in response to the increasing demands of the engine - that depends on how quickly the piston catches up with increased demands of the engine...

Now I can't make my mind up if it's me or you that is overlooking something in the other person's argument. If it's me then it would have to be something in the instantaneous condition prior to lifting the piston. I can see that the actual orifice producing the depression would be a letterbox box shaped slot between the piston and bridge: the combined "slots" of twin carbs would be almost twice as wide, regardless of the height needed to give a corresponding area / rate of flow to a single carb. That would give a much more significant difference in circumference than the choke diameters would suggest. My difficulty is it would be even better with twins as big, or bigger, than the single carb.

#48 samo250

samo250

    Starting My Mini Up

  • Noobies
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Location: romford

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:10 PM

Lol so if I put twin 1 1\4 on a standard 1275 with stage I kit what air filters work best pancake or cone and if I put stage 1 needles in the carbs with mini spares super flow jets what would be best

#49 John Gervais

John Gervais

    Learner Driver

  • Noobies
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Copenhagen
  • Local Club: Mini Club Copenhagen

Posted 11 January 2016 - 05:57 AM

Fantastic thread!



#50 Dusky

Dusky

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,322 posts
  • Location: Belgium

Posted 21 February 2016 - 03:25 PM

Sorry to dig this up again, but can someoen explain me the following? :

I always read that each cilinder only sees 1 carb, as there is almost no cross flow.
But why is a twin hs4 adequate where a single hif44 is adequate?

 

I saw a downton manifold ( almost no balance tube, just a bit of rubber fuel hose) lately and that got me wondering..

Cheers!



#51 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,937 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 21 February 2016 - 07:41 PM

Sorry to dig this up again, but can someoen explain me the following? :

I always read that each cilinder only sees 1 carb, as there is almost no cross flow.
But why is a twin hs4 adequate where a single hif44 is adequate?

 

I saw a downton manifold ( almost no balance tube, just a bit of rubber fuel hose) lately and that got me wondering..

Cheers!

 

Twins look so much more sexy than a single!

 

Particularly at part throttle on the standard twin manifolds, there is a LOT of cross flow, when the carbs are 'matched', flow will often oscillate between each other. This is what's wrong with the stock manifold, the balance pipe only need be around 10 - 12 mm ID.



#52 Dusky

Dusky

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,322 posts
  • Location: Belgium

Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:25 PM


Sorry to dig this up again, but can someoen explain me the following? :
I always read that each cilinder only sees 1 carb, as there is almost no cross flow.
But why is a twin hs4 adequate where a single hif44 is adequate?
 
I saw a downton manifold ( almost no balance tube, just a bit of rubber fuel hose) lately and that got me wondering..

Cheers!

 
Twins look so much more sexy than a single!
 
Particularly at part throttle on the standard twin manifolds, there is a LOT of cross flow, when the carbs are 'matched', flow will often oscillate between each other. This is what's wrong with the stock manifold, the balance pipe only need be around 10 - 12
So the fuel pipe idea gets another vote? ^^ I was thinking of cutting up a mg B manifold when I d get twin hif38(hif4) carbs, as they don't seem too fancy with their float angles?
Got to do some research before tho :P


But at Full throttle, os there enough flow to make as much power? Its too late for me to think properly :)

#53 timmy850

timmy850

    Up Into Fourth

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,997 posts
  • Location: NSW, Australia
  • Local Club: MITG

Posted 22 February 2016 - 12:55 AM

The HIF44 (1.75) is a bigger throttle size than the HS4 (1.5), and generally the HIF carbs are more efficient than the same sized HS. If you are still thinking about the balance tube idea, just block it up and see what difference it makes...

 

 

Although according to the Calver chart, twin HS4 would get you more power than the single HIF44 :

su_carbsizing.jpg

http://www.minimania..._carbsizing.jpg



#54 jaydee

jaydee

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,565 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 11:01 AM

I've fitted MG manifolds to minis to a good result, usually you'll need to re arrange the throttle linkage to clear some types of exhaust manifolds but with standard cooper type 3-1 manifolds its a no brainer.

Also the different angle will make the carbs sit lower so see if you can clear the bulkhead, the balance pipe is a lot smaller but the overall inlet tract lenght is also shorter and this will make tuning quite different from a normal mini setup



#55 grizzler73

grizzler73

    Speeding Along Now

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  • Location: Cheshunt

Posted 22 February 2016 - 01:57 PM

Interesting thread!

I will have to use HS2 twins on my racing GTM as that is what the regs stipulate, I want to apply the Vizard mods to them so they are more effective, one question I do have is about squaring off to the bridge, should this be done on both sides of the damper or just the air filter side? Also, I have no restrictions on the length of the manifold as there is no bulkhead to worry about, is it better to have a inline engine (MG Midget etc) or a transverse engine manifold, I am not allowed use an aftermarket one so need to know what the best "stock" manifold would be?



#56 jaydee

jaydee

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,565 posts

Posted 22 February 2016 - 02:39 PM

Rules allow you to add extra spacers?



#57 nicklouse

nicklouse

    Moved Into The Garage

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,946 posts
  • Location: Not Yorkshire
  • Local Club: Anonyme Miniholiker

Posted 22 February 2016 - 02:47 PM

Interesting thread!

I will have to use HS2 twins on my racing GTM as that is what the regs stipulate, I want to apply the Vizard mods to them so they are more effective, one question I do have is about squaring off to the bridge, should this be done on both sides of the damper or just the air filter side? Also, I have no restrictions on the length of the manifold as there is no bulkhead to worry about, is it better to have a inline engine (MG Midget etc) or a transverse engine manifold, I am not allowed use an aftermarket one so need to know what the best "stock" manifold would be?

well you do have some frame work and "boot" to think about but longer spaces and good length trumpets should be tested and used but as a general consideration as straight as possible into the head as you don't want the charge loaded to any side.



#58 grizzler73

grizzler73

    Speeding Along Now

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  • Location: Cheshunt

Posted 22 February 2016 - 03:38 PM

I think there is only about 20mm difference between the mini an inline manifold, can't imagine there being much of a difference, I will be using short stacks as the Vizard book with K&N's as I want my engine to last and not suck in a load of dirt.



#59 nicklouse

nicklouse

    Moved Into The Garage

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,946 posts
  • Location: Not Yorkshire
  • Local Club: Anonyme Miniholiker

Posted 22 February 2016 - 03:48 PM

so you are not turning the boot into an air box?

 

ITG do suitable filters that work well with long trumpets.



#60 grizzler73

grizzler73

    Speeding Along Now

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  • Location: Cheshunt

Posted 22 February 2016 - 04:16 PM

I wasn't intending to, given the restrictions I have with the regs, I'm not sure what I would gain with long stacks. I want a neat installation that means I don't have to hack the body about to get in.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users