25 replies to this topic

[Stu.]

Yes I know that, but if Haynes says to set the engine to TDC on the firing stroke and then shows that the camshaft keyway is at 2 o clock once it is set, why is mine at 8 o clock once I've done it ? Sorry I'm not getting it Dan !

[Dan]

Where in which manual have you found this? I've only seen them describe cam timing in Haynes by describing dot to dot, not by describing a physical cam position. They only describe the actual cam position when talking about ignition timing don't they?

[grumpy dad]

Hi stu

send me a pm with your mail address

and will send you the 2 pages you need from the proper workshop manual 

[Stu.]

OK. So all I'm doing is replacing the timing chain and sprockets for a new duplex kit.

Referring the the Haynes Manual for the correct procedure, I followed Chapter 2 - 2A.6 Section 7 - Timing Chain, Tensioner and Sprockets - Removal, inspection and refitting.

In removal, it says to set the engine at TDC for No1 piston as described in Section 4.

I did this following the text and confirmed the rocker positions, pully notch to cover, and dizzy arm position on the car matched the text in the manual.

Then back to Section 7, once I had removed the pully and timing cover I observed that the crankshaft woodruff key was at 12 o clock, and the camshaft woodruff key was at 8 o clock.

Now here is my confusion, Haynes in Section 7 paragraph 20 says that the crankshaft woodruff key should be at the 12 o clock position and the camshaft woodruff key should be at the 2 o clock position.

Haynes also says to set up the chain and sprockets using dot to dot to line up the keyways to the woodruff keys on the shafts.

So this has been my query all along.

Am I OK to install the new chain and sprockets with the camshaft woodruff key set at 8 o clock not 2 o clock as the Manual suggests ?

The car was running ok before I started, so the current set up must be ok, I just want to know if it's ok to take old off and fit new as it is ?

Thanks for your help.

[grumpy dad]

Hi 

yes you can do it your way and it will work

because you are doing a like for like swap

but it sounds to me as though 

the dissy drive is 180 out

[Dan]

Ok, I'm with you now. It appears this is another (one of far too many) errors in the later manuals. Sadly later Haynes manuals are full of mistakes and assumptions. You will notice they no longer say 'workshop manual' or 'every manual based on a complete strip down and rebuild' on the cover. I've reported a number of errors to them but they are only going to be corrected if there is ever a new edition, which is unlikely now. It's sad that they felt the need to change more or less the entire text to dumb it down, because it seems the people who did the writing had little experience of the specific vehicles they were writing about. Large amounts of the later books, for all sorts of models, seem to be cut and pasted across many different cars of a similar age.

The manual is basically wrong here. It can't be firing on 1 and have the woodruff key at 2 o'clock at the same time. So don't worry about it, there's nothing wrong or unusual about your engine. Yes as I said before you can happily time it in this position as long as the dots and shaft centres line up on a straight edge. It's easier with the dots together though less room for error.

And ignore the dizzy drive, don't change anything there. You have been using the valves to identify position not the dizzy, the valves can't be out of time from the cam.

Edited by Dan, 16 March 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Ethel]

Dot to dot is 4 firing, so if the cam/dizzy are untouched, just make sure the rotor arm is pointing at No 4's plug lead.

[dklawson]

Sorry if my previous post was unhelpful.  Based on your last post, I understand better now what is going on.   I agree with Dan and Ethel.  

[Stu.]

Oh thank God. I thought I was going mad !

This is very frustrating because as an amateur trying to learn and develop new skills as a hobby you put natural faith in these Manuals as you think they should be correct.

So if dot to dot is set on the sprockets then number 4 valves will be closed (firing) not number 1 cylinder as the Manual states.

Ethel, thank you and yes when I move the sprockets dot to dot and look at the dizzy it does point to number 4 lead, so I'll set it in this position when I change the chain and sprockets. I'll also make a note in my manual !

Doug, your post was not unhelpful at all, they never are. It just took me a while to explain what was going on and why I was confused, which annoyingly turned out to be due to errors in the Haynes Manual.

Dan, thanks very much for being patient and taking the time to help me.

[bluemini17]

Sorry to drag up an old thread!!

 

Thank you all for such an informative post.

 

I have spent the past 3 nights pulling my hair out with this exact situation. timing dots apparently 180deg out etc. I was going mad, i felt the compression in No.1 and checked the rockers on No.4 and couldn't understand why my 'dots' were 180 out. I too followed the new version of the haynes manual and placed my faith in the annotated image of the keyway's positioning. how frustrating. I have since printed this topic out and placed it in my haynes manual for reference.

 

once again THANK YOU for this informative post, perhaps an FYI or sticky.

 

Dave.

[Spider]

I didn't read all the posts here, so appolgies in advance if it was already covered.

 

When the dots are lined up, it is No. 4 Cylinder that is firing, not No. 1.