33 replies to this topic

[Rog46]

Just think how long it takes to for the heater to start working - that's with the engine full of water, but no flow through the radiator.

I wouldn't worry about a garden hose, but fit a bottom hose and clamp it closed fit the top hose turned through 90 degrees so it points upwards and fill the system with water . Even if it starts to boil you have only just got to normal running temperature!

[Cooperman]

I wonder when we'll get a thread "I ran my engine with no coolant for a short while and it has seized. Now it is smoking when run even with coolant. Do I have to re-bore it and do another re-build?". To which the answer will be "Yes".

 

Years ago I borrowed an almost brand new Triumph Spitfire. I sat outside all night then all day in freezing temp and then I drove it. It got about 3 miles when it seized due to lack of coolant. It had not been filled with anti-freeze, had frozen up, pushed a core plug out and lost all the coolant. I was surprised how soon it seized so badly that the rear wheels locked up. It needed a complete new engine under warranty as it was the dealer's fault. Apparently a defective hose had been replaced by the dealer and they neglected to re-fill with anti-freeze - in January!

[Kam]

3 miles! C'mon seriously, OP is not gonna run this engine for 3 miles worth let alone even 3 minutes and thats at idle! 

 

OP - it takes what seconds to crank an engine and get an oil pressure light come up? How long do you think it will take to do what you need to do with an engine idling?

 

If people who have done this before (what you intend to do) are saying its done and dusted in less than 30 seconds then just do it, 10 seconds of that will be you walking round to switch it on an off - and thats even if you need to fire it up

 

If it will be longer than 30 seconds then get the guys who built the turbo to take care of it (as mentioned earlier), I'm not saying after 30 seconds your screwed but you need to know beforehand how much time does it actually take to do what you need to do?

 

I think people think you are gonna idle it boot it and then take it out for a drive up and down the country! 

 

I wouldn't say do something that will harm your engine but you need to tell us how much time we are talking about here? If its only for a few seconds then you don't need coolant, and we are talking about a rebuild here so anything could happen as there is alot of other factors involved that might harm your engine, if you don't feel comfortable doing it then put simply don't but at least let us know what time frame we are talking about here?

 

[Cooperman]

My 3 miles in the Spitfire included starting it, driving away, melting all the ice in the block, pumping out the coolant and then it seizing. I reckon I drove it for 5 minutes before it seized - and, boy oh boy, did it seize. It was totally without coolant for, I guess, about 1 minute. Engine was badly damaged and needed a replacement.

 

However, if anyone wants to take the risk, then it's up to them. Water cooled engines are meant to be, well, water cooled.

 

I ran a Land-Rover Discovery for 10 seconds yesterday to check the cam belt change before re-fitting the rad and filling with coolant. For me that is quite enough.

[Kam]

Op's car is sitting there ready to be cranked over not driven, I'm gonna take a guess and say he/she is not waiting for the ice to melt and waiting for there non existent coolant to be pumped out, nor is it January even with the lovely rain we have had on this bank holiday today

 

You're right water cooled engines are meant to be water cooled but this is not an engine that has been driving and its time for it to be cooled, whether or not its got a thermostat or not thats ready to open up and let the hot stuff flow through is irrelevant, we are (again I'm guessing here) talking about cranking starting idling and after the job of filling a turbo with oil is done its switched off

 

As for the Landy, if its a customers car then why take a risk without coolant if your that uncomfortable with it in the first place, if its your own personal Landy then thats your call just like the OP's, if your practising what you preach then pot calling the kettle...

 

[Cooperman]

Op's car is sitting there ready to be cranked over not driven, I'm gonna take a guess and say he/she is not waiting for the ice to melt and waiting for there non existent coolant to be pumped out, nor is it January even with the lovely rain we have had on this bank holiday today

 

You're right water cooled engines are meant to be water cooled but this is not an engine that has been driving and its time for it to be cooled, whether or not its got a thermostat or not thats ready to open up and let the hot stuff flow through is irrelevant, we are (again I'm guessing here) talking about cranking starting idling and after the job of filling a turbo with oil is done its switched off

 

As for the Landy, if its a customers car then why take a risk without coolant if your that uncomfortable with it in the first place, if its your own personal Landy then thats your call just like the OP's, if your practising what you preach then pot calling the kettle...

 

Please read carefully what I said in my earlier posts:

 

Running an engine without any coolant sounds like a good way to seize it up.

Maybe from cold for around 15 seconds would do no harm, but beyond that there is a serious risk of seizing up the bores and ruining the entire engine.

With coolant in but no rad or fan it could run for maybe a minute or more.

The best thing is to connect the garden hose to the bottom hose hole into the water pump, run it until the water is running out of the top hose outlet, leave it running whilst the engine is run. That way you are completely safe.

 

However, if anyone wants to run for 10 seconds or 10 minutes with no coolant that is entirely their choice. But we 'Mini Docs' are not allowed to give advice or information which could cause damage, difficulties or adverse safety. No-one has to take the advice, it's up to them. It is a fact that running without coolant could cause damage which is why I mentioned 1/4 of a minute as being the longest I would run one for and know that it is totally safe. Sue, I know it could probably run for longer, but I'm sure-as-hell not going to recommend it.

[Kam]

My eyesight is pretty much where I need it so I suggest you read carefully yourself, I don't need a "Mini Docs" title to give advice, I love my title whatever little it represents 

 

OP - it takes what seconds to crank an engine and get an oil pressure light come up? How long do you think it will take to do what you need to do with an engine idling?

 

If people who have done this before (what you intend to do) are saying its done and dusted in less than 30 seconds then just do it, 10 seconds of that will be you walking round to switch it on an off - and thats even if you need to fire it up

 

If it will be longer than 30 seconds then get the guys who built the turbo to take care of it (as mentioned earlier), I'm not saying after 30 seconds your screwed but you need to know beforehand how much time does it actually take to do what you need to do?

 

I wouldn't say do something that will harm your engine but you need to tell us how much time we are talking about here?

 

 

If its the wrong advice then I suggest you report it or delete it, but stop wasting my time with your Mini Docs statement!

 

I'm not on here to give bad advice to another fellow mini owner and I don't have to tread on eggshells and cover myself with what I said

 

I'm replying to what the OP is asking about, an engine thats not even hooked up full stop and they need to idle it quickly, not scaring them with tales of ifs and buts of yesteryear with your mates triumph and a landy blah blah blah, if you have a problem with that then thats how it will stay, as your problem

[GreenMini17]

Well thanks for all the replies guys. I didnt want to start an argument! Anyway, think im safer to plumb in the rad and run it with coolant. Its not too much hassle to take it back out again. Its an expensive engine and im not risking anything that may cause problems. I appreciate everyone has different opinions and it was more out of curiosity of it could be done or not. Thanks.

[Kam]

No argument here Chris, not by me as I'm not stuck up my own exhaust pipe with my felt tip pens 

 

 

Running an engine without any coolant sounds like a good way to seize it up.

 

Maybe from cold for around 15 seconds would do no harm, but beyond that there is a serious risk of seizing up the bores and ruining the entire engine.

 

Like you did with the Landy right? 

 

You are saying running an engine with no coolant is a good way to seize it up yet running it for around 1/4 of a minute would do no harm but beyond that there is serious risk to seizing up the bores and ruining the entire engine?

 

So apart from wanting to run it with no coolant in the first place what exact harm does a 1/4 of minute do as opposed to the 1/3 of a minute I suggested will do instead? It sounds to me you are either trying to spout your "hierarchy" or are trying to bull a bulls*tter (excuse the language) either way its a wasted effort

 

The OP has already been told if they don't wish to go down this route then don't, end of, therefore I suggest you get off your green hierarchy pole and point it at someone who actually gives a rats bottom as thats not me so find someone else to bore

[Dan]

Actually Kam you are arguing here, and I think you have completely misinterpreted what Cooperman was saying when he mentioned being a Minidoc.

[Kam]

Actually Kam you are arguing here, and I think you have completely misinterpreted what Cooperman was saying when he mentioned being a Minidoc.

 

Sorry Dan not having it

 

No misinterpretation here, the so called master can't recommend what he would do then spout off about just being impartial advice as he can't recommend it as they are a "Doc" on here so it has no bearing to cover himself, there is being a mod and being respected and just plain trying to take the pee

 

Everyone here gives advice, everyone has read the warning at the top to say if your guessing then don't bother, if they still choose to avoid that then thats there issue, I haven't done either

 

I'm being told I'm wrong because I'm disagreeing with a so called "Doc"? I've answered the OP's question and not come up with suggestive scenario as to what happened in the yester years of ownership and what could happen if blah blah blah

 

Whats the point in answering a question if its all one way? Where do you think the argument will stem from?

 

I'm not backing down here Dan, the so called green brigade are sticking together I can understand that but nothings been misinterpreted here so do with that as you will

[Captain Mainwaring]

I wonder when we'll get a thread "I ran my engine with no coolant for a short while and it has seized. Now it is smoking when run even with coolant. Do I have to re-bore it and do another re-build?". To which the answer will be "Yes".

 

Years ago I borrowed an almost brand new Triumph Spitfire. I sat outside all night then all day in freezing temp and then I drove it. It got about 3 miles when it seized due to lack of coolant. It had not been filled with anti-freeze, had frozen up, pushed a core plug out and lost all the coolant. I was surprised how soon it seized so badly that the rear wheels locked up. It needed a complete new engine under warranty as it was the dealer's fault. Apparently a defective hose had been replaced by the dealer and they neglected to re-fill with anti-freeze - in January!

 

Driving is putting a load more energy into the cooling system than idling for a minute or two. It's all about the amount of fuel burned - in driving 3 miles you would have burned around half a litre - liberating give or take 15MJoules of energy and 70% ish of that ends up as heat -  Take SHC of iron as 0.5KJ/CKg - it's enough to raise 100Kg of CI through 200C.

 

Not quite the same as a minute or two idling

[Captain Mainwaring]

My 3 miles in the Spitfire included starting it, driving away, melting all the ice in the block, pumping out the coolant and then it seizing. I reckon I drove it for 5 minutes before it seized - and, boy oh boy, did it seize. It was totally without coolant for, I guess, about 1 minute. Engine was badly damaged and needed a replacement.

 

However, if anyone wants to take the risk, then it's up to them. Water cooled engines are meant to be, well, water cooled.

 

I ran a Land-Rover Discovery for 10 seconds yesterday to check the cam belt change before re-fitting the rad and filling with coolant. For me that is quite enough.

 

I'm surprised that as a very competent engineer that you just follow the thinking of others without doing the maths for yourself.

 

My CBX (1050cc 6 cylinder - 130HP air cooled runs oil temps of 130C,) doesn't seize up at idle with no airflow.

 

My wife kindly ran my 3.2 litre diesel pajero without water until it stopped because the injector pump got so hot that it thought it was a washing machine - It cooled down just fine and suffered no damage (don't try it at home)

 

No, I wouldn't take the mick, and no I wouldn't gun the engine - but I would be happy to run a cold engine up to idle for a minute or two without any concern.

[Captain Mainwaring]

I think it was mentioned, but the only thing I might do would be to pop the fan belt, not because of pumping coolant but because i wouldn't want to run the water pump with dry seals - oh the luxury of being able to talk crap in front of a keyboard, in the real world I'd have started the bloody thing with the FB on and not thought a thing about it

[Cooperman]

This topic has become very silly.

If owners want to run their engines with no coolant for minutes on end, and others are advising that it is OK to do so, then it's their choice to take their advice from whichever source they like.