22 replies to this topic

[Cooperman]

I was discussing this topic with a friend who used to be a senior police officer and who is a classic car 'nut'. We were talking about how badly the screen scuttle panel rusts on the late cars in particular, these being the cars with the VIN number stamped into the scuttle front edge.

Now the screen scuttle is available as a complete replacement and this is often necessary, so the car ends up with no VIN stamped in. There are, therefore, 3 options:

 

1.  The leave it without a stamped in VIN number.

2.  To cut the piece off the old panel with the VIN number stamped on it and MIG weld it into the new panel.

3.  To buy some metal stamps of the right size and stamp the number into the new panel yourself.

 

We thought about this and decided that having no VIN number could be a problem when selling the car, but welding in the old bit of scuttle or stamping on the number yourself could indicate a 'ringer'. The DVLA don't offer a re-stamping service (or much of any kind of a service actually!).

 

There is no other indication as to the origin of a body-shell apart from this stamped in number.

 

What a strange situation really, but helpful to those wanting to do shell changes  .

[Carlos W]

I think documenting the scuttle replacement with photographs etc would assist in demonstrating no foul play.

[DomCr250]

You could keep it as proof or at least a section of it and then stamp the number into the new section too.

[adam_93rio]

It's pointless bothering stamping it in, it's only going to rot away again. But welding the old piece in shouldn't really make it look like a ringer if you do it properly

[Carlos W]

It's pointless bothering stamping it in, it's only going to rot away again. But welding the old piece in shouldn't really make it look like a ringer if you do it properly

 

Then surely it's pointless bothering welding it in, it's only going to rot away again.

 

My 1983 mayfair still has it's original scuttle, a proper repair well prepared will last a long time

[Marcos Controls]

I had this problem when I replaced my scuttle. The stamp size used for the VIN number is an odd size apparently and the main dealer bodyshop that did my welding couldn't track down a set. In Poland they do offer a re-stamping service if you go through the myriad of paperwork and fees. The bodyshop was reluctant to release the car back to me without the VIN number being replaced or documented.

 

I have what is left of the original scuttle with the VIN number and photos of the work done. I make no difference to me as the car is not likely to be sold on once finished.

[Ben_O]

I think that cutting the number off of the old scuttle and seam welding it in flush is the best option.

 

As for it not being worth it, the way i look at it is if its going to rust again in the future, it will do so regardless of whether you add the vin or not so you may as well just spend the 40 minutes or whatever to do it.

 

Cheers

 

Ben

[Cooperman]

But if you decided the change the shell for a 2nd hand one and just cut out the correct VIN and welded in the one from the scrap shell, it would still be a welded in VIN plate.

 

I once bought a 'ringer' Cortina 1600E. The VIN number was correct although it turned out to be a total ringer. The Old Bill took it away when someone else tried to get a new V5 by using the scrap shell. I sued the garage and won substantial damages.

 

The point is that having the correct VIN number is no proof that the shell is the correct one. Neither the DVLA nor VOSA offer any advice on this that I've found. it's fine to say to keep photos, but what happens in, say, 15 years time when the car changes hands (again)? My ex-police friend says that it's a totally 'grey' area with no actual legislation and any of the options listed can be deemed legal.

 

What a silly situation. I'm glad my cars are Mk.1's as they have no actual shell markings at all, especially after 50 years of repairs and re-shelling (when re-shelling was quite legal).

[Ben_O]

Thing is, the photo's wouldn't 100% prove anything anyway and if you was going to ring a car, you could keep the bit of scuttle from the original car as 'proof' anyway and it would still no prove that the car was genuine.

 

If you are doing the job legitimately and replacing the scuttle, as long as you put the number back and it looks original and everything is cosher  then there is nothing to worry about surely.

 

Having thought about it some more though, perhaps the best option is to fit the new scuttle, leave the number off and perhaps cut the part with the original vin and keep it with the paperwork.

 

Worryingly, although it is illegal to re-shell a car with a used shell, there is really no way to prove whether a mini has been re-shelled with a second hand shell unless it is a different body type or completely different age where body features would be different.

 

I suppose that you could always keep the invoice for the replacement scuttle to prove that it has been changed. You can usually tell if one has been changed as it is extremely difficult if not impossible to make the replacement scuttle joins and welds look completely factory. There will always be signs to the trained eye that panels have been changed no matter how well the job has been done. 

 

Thats all you can do i guess.

[Carlos W]

 unless it is a different body type or completely different age where body features would be different.

 

Interesting point Ben!

 

Mk1 number plates with SPi features, like washer bottle in the boot, inertia switch in the bulk head etc etc!!!!

[Ben_O]

 

 unless it is a different body type or completely different age where body features would be different.

 

Interesting point Ben!

 

Mk1 number plates with SPi features, like washer bottle in the boot, inertia switch in the bulk head etc etc!!!!

 

Like we was talking about the other day 

[adam_93rio]

Like I said, if it is welded in properly then there would never be any way of telling that it had been welded in

[midridge2]

When I worked in body shops the Police use to come to inspect some of the cars, they had a type of hand held ultra violet lamp that they shone on the Vin numbers that were stamped in the floor etc, it showed up the welds  around the number .    
So you can tell if the vin number has been cut out and re welded in.

[Carlos W]

Thing is, the photo's wouldn't 100% prove anything anyway and if you was going to ring a car, you could keep the bit of scuttle from the original car as 'proof' anyway and it would still no prove that the car was genuine.

 

If you are doing the job legitimately and replacing the scuttle, as long as you put the number back and it looks original and everything is cosher  then there is nothing to worry about surely.

 

Having thought about it some more though, perhaps the best option is to fit the new scuttle, leave the number off and perhaps cut the part with the original vin and keep it with the paperwork.

 

Worryingly, although it is illegal to re-shell a car with a used shell, there is really no way to prove whether a mini has been re-shelled with a second hand shell unless it is a different body type or completely different age where body features would be different.

 

 

 

 unless it is a different body type or completely different age where body features would be different.

 

Interesting point Ben!

 

Mk1 number plates with SPi features, like washer bottle in the boot, inertia switch in the bulk head etc etc!!!!

 

Like we was talking about the other day 

 

And the issue for me in all of this is the source of the second hand shell.

 

There are 2 reasons for putting a tax exempt ID onto a later car (lets face it we're not talking about re-shelling are we)

 

1. To avoid paying vehicle excise duty.

2. To hide the identity of a stolen car.

 

We can debate the moralities of number 1 all day long, however I assume we are all in agreement none of us want our mini to be the source of the stolen shell.

 

Likewise, none of us want to be the victim of buying a car that turns out to be stolen and end up out of pocket.

[Carlos W]

What a strange situation really, but helpful to those wanting to do shell changes  .

 

I suppose if you keep the receipt for your shiny new shell and declare it to DVLA this would help with the legitimacy of the change