22 replies to this topic

[Dan]

Like I said, if it is welded in properly then there would never be any way of telling that it had been welded in

 

 

  If you don't think they'd be willing to go to the lengths of using a microscope to check the grain pattern of the steel around any suspected welds in order to prove you've avoided paying them years of road tax you are quite mistaken.

 

  There is a system for re-stamping in this country.  I looked into it many years ago when I reshelled my car with a Heritage body and I'll see if I can dig up any paperwork from it.  There are problems with it, mainly in that most of the DVLA don't know the system exists or how to go about doing it.  Most times if you ask the DVLA the person speaking to you will tell you that you need to go to a main dealer, as in this country the manufacturer is allowed to re-stamp.  Main dealers are not the manufacturer however, the DVLA call handlers just think they are.  The dealers don't have the right stamps, and are not willing to get a set for you.  In theory they can go to the manufacturer with relevant proof and get permission and order stamps but they don't want to get involved.  Really you have to go to a DVLA garage, the places that do VIC checks and so on.  They can do it, and have stamps and things, as they are the places you go to in order to get a new number stamped if the DVLA tell you that you have to change the number for any of their obscure reasons.  You have to have proofs and you have to have a letter from DVLA allowing them to re-stamp it and that is the hard part to get because as I said, hardly anyone there knows the system exists.  

[bpirie1000]

Watching this from a far........ Nice to see folks thoughts....

Personally I think the inner wing plate is enough..

If your into your minis enough you can tell if it is a new shell mini or if it is where the work should have been done to make it look authentic....I.e water bottle correct place for car/ correct engine/ rear bulk head hole/ roof gutter seams/ etc

[Cooperman]

The issue is not replacement shells, it's how to deal with the inevitable screen lower scuttle panel on later cars which have the VIN factory stamped in, but which all suffer from rust across the entire scuttle panel.

 

That is where the 'grey' area exists.

 

Changing body shells is a completely different matter and was not what this thread was about. So many post 1985 cars have had their scuttle panels changed and most now will not have any stamped-in VIN number. Whether that is a problem, and if it is, then how it can be dealt with are what needs to be sorted out one way or another. Even the DVLA don't seem to know the answer. A 1997 MPI with either no VIN number stamped into the scuttle, a plate cut from the original MIG welded in (the joins will be identifiable under X-ray or U/V), or a self-stamped number will all cause some doubt as to actual identity.

 

With Mk.1 & Mk.2 cars it's not a problem as shell changes were allowed back 'in the period' and the early shells had no ident. stamped in anywhere. In fact, Mk.1 & 2 shell changes are still happening across the entire Mini ownership base without any problems, even though some are against it. It has been pointed out many times that if, say, a Mk.1 Cooper 'S' were to be badly crashed rather than losing 330,000, an owner would find a decent 850 shell and re-build it to the original specification, at which point it would be to the full & correct specification.

[Carlos W]

With Mk.1 & Mk.2 cars it's not a problem as shell changes were allowed back 'in the period' and the early shells had no ident. stamped in anywhere. In fact, Mk.1 & 2 shell changes are still happening across the entire Mini ownership base without any problems, even though some are against it. It has been pointed out many times that if, say, a Mk.1 Cooper 'S' were to be badly crashed rather than losing £30,000, an owner would find a decent 850 shell and re-build it to the original specification, at which point it would be to the full & correct specification.

 

The issue (for me) is the source of the shell. 

Edited by Cooperman, 15 June 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[Cooperman]

Times and attitudes change. I guess that's inevitable.

 

Back in the '60's when the Mini, the Cooper & the Cooper 'S' were all current production cars, their competition success was the basis from which the now-iconic classic status evolved.

However, many of the competition cars of that era were either built from new or used shells, particularly for racing, or as rally cars, were re-shelled into 2nd hand 850 shells after being badly damaged on events. I can say with all honesty that it was easier to buy a cheap 850 with maybe light damage and repair, then build the 'S' and the rally parts into it, then to try to straighten out a badly rolled car. Even the 'works' did this all the time, as did the prominent private teams. This also applied to Fords and even to Porsches. It was simply acceptable. Even BMC Dealers were involved in this and it was accepted as OK by everyone.

It still happens now and as a Mk.1 & Mk.2 shell has no individual identification it is not possible to inspect or check, if the re-build is done properly.

 

The issue on this thread is how the loss of stamped-in VIN number on later cars should be addressed when the scuttle panel is replaced due to corrosion and the number is lost.

[surfblue63]

You might find this link useful

 

https://www.gov.uk/v...fication-number

 

 

By the way, post '85 cars also have a chassis plate on the inner wing, much like the Mk1, 2, 3 and 4 cars had on the rad shroud or slam panel. So the ID is not entirely lost when the scuttle is replaced.

 

PS when I had my '93 Sprite body restored the company cut the old piece of scuttle out of the scrap panel and gave it to me. They told me that it is it is not strictly legal to weld it into the new panel. The car still has it's original inner wing with original chassis plate attached.

Edited by surfblue63, 16 June 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[Cooperman]

You might find this link useful

 

https://www.gov.uk/v...fication-number

 

 

By the way, post '85 cars also have a chassis plate on the inner wing, much like the Mk1, 2, 3 and 4 cars had on the rad shroud or slam panel. So the ID is not entirely lost when the scuttle is replaced.

 

PS when I had my '93 Sprite body restored the company cut the old piece of scuttle out of the scrap panel and gave it to me. They told me that it is it is not strictly legal to weld it into the new panel. The car still has it's original inner wing with original chassis plate attached.

 

I had noticed this some time ago (a fat lot of help it is too!):

 

The VIN is usually stamped into the chassis of the vehicle. It may be lost if you rebuild or modify your vehicle.

 

No advice or instructions about what happens if you do lose it due to rebuild/repair. Nothing about what to do if an MoT Test Station won't pass it because it has no stamped in number, just a riveted on plate.

 

The whole thing is very strange.

[surfblue63]

From the MOT testers manual. It is not a requirement for the vin number to be stamped on any part of the vehicle.

 

If the VIN can not be found then the tester notifies the VRO and it is most likely that the vehicle will be subject to a VIC check.

 

 

 

A Vehicle Identification Number (VIN or chassis number) is required on all vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1980. except those which are
. kit cars
. amateur built vehicles
If a VIN cannot be found the vehicle presenter should be advised of the likely location of the VIN and to thoroughly search for the number with the aid of the registration certificate. If following this action the VIN cannot be found the vehicle presenter should contact the nearest Vehicle Registration Office.
  5. Check that the vehicle is permanently displaying a legible Vehicle Identification Number (this can either be on a VIN plate secured to the vehicle or stamped or etched on the vehicle body or chassis).
  5. a. A Vehicle Identification Number not permanently displayed, incomplete or not legible
Note: Only one VIN is required to be complete and legible.
b. more than one different Vehicle Identification Number displayed.

Note: It is acceptable for a vehicle that has been manufactured as part of a multistage build, (a modification taken place to a vehicle at the manufacture stage before sold as new) to show more than one VIN.

The second and subsequent stage VINs will also be a 17 digit VIN and will be displayed on an additional plate.

When a multistage built vehicle is presented for test the last stage VIN must be used for MOT documentation

 

Edited by surfblue63, 16 June 2014 - 05:30 PM.