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Straight Cut Gears - Beginners


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#1 ryomini

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:13 AM

Yop

 

trying to get my head around understanding rebuilding a dead mini for a budgetish fast street mini

 

I have never done some of this before

I want to try straight cut gears

I want to ask lots of stupid nooby I haven't been there before questions

 

firstly is there some already available clear and simple info I can follow for this ?

 

second do I just replace gears on the input output shafts ?

do I keep the standard ratios ?

can I keep reverse as non straight cut (don't intend to go fast backwards ;) )

 

is it better to stick to 4 rather than put in a 5 speed ?

is it better to keep 4 as non straight cut ?

what is a reasonable budget for maximum do it yerself ?

all this for a fast street mini

thanks

 



#2 Dusky

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:44 AM

If you are building a street mini i would keep the stransfer Gears helical.
The rest depends on your desired spec and budget.

#3 Spider

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 07:12 AM

Usually, before looking at alternate gears ratios, you need to see what gearing your engine would need or what best suits it.

 

In an ideal world, the difference between each ratio would be selected such that - for example - as the engine reaches Peak HP in 2nd, then shifting in to 3rd, would put you right on Peak Torque in the Engine's Power Band, same for 3rd to 4th. Same would apply to 1st gear, but it is usually a little lower than this ideal.

 

In a Road going engine, these two points in the Rev Band are much wider apart than is the case on a Race going engine. This is why on a Race Car, they run closer ratios.

 

In the Mini Drivetrain, there are several sets or groups of gears;-

 

Transfer or Drop Gears

Gears (in the gearbox), and

Diff or Final Drive Gears

 

Each of these sets are available as in straight cut types, and fitting one group, doesn't mean that it's necessary to change other, ie, you can for example just fit straight cut transfer gears if you like.

 

There seems to be several suppliers / manufacturers of these at present, but I will say, you get what you pay for, while true of most parts, this is more acute with gear sets.

 

I'll just throw in, contrary to some popular belief - gear for gear - straight cut gears are weaker than helical cut gears.

 

In regards to the transfer gear sets, there are a few different ratios available, from 1:1 (as most helical sets already are) to a reduction or under-drive sets. They tend to be very noisy, mainly because they are not all held together within a single casing (like the gearbox is), but between 2 or 3 depending on which gear you are looking at so alignment is never 100%, also the transfer case webbing which holds the gear bearings (half of them) is comparatively thin so it tends to amplify rather than dampen the noise from these gears.

 

In regards to the Gear Sets in the Gearbox itself, there are quite a number of different sets available, most are very close ratio, ie little ratio difference between gears. These are suited to very 'Cammy' engines that only have a narrow power band and don't suit street engine too well at all. First gear is quite high which suits race engines as they run low Final Drive ratios. On some sets, First Gear is almost the same as Second on an ordinary Helical set, so when driving around for a while, to give you an idea of what that would be like, don't use First. Your clutch won't last as well as it otherwise would.

 

Race Cars 'get around' this by running Diff Ratios in the 4:1 to 5:1 ratio, by contrast, most of our street Minis, run in the 2.9:1 to 3.4:1 ratio. Those low suit race cars again with cammy engines as they don't work too well below 4000 RPM.

 

With the Diff Gears, I haven't looked to be 100% sure, but I think most suppliers these days only do 'semi-straight cut' (which are in reality a reduced angle helical cut) only have ratios from around the 3.9:1 to 5:1 available. Not really suited to a street car.

 

For a street car, I have tried SC Transfer Gears and also the Gearbox Sets (original Special Tuning ones). I would recommend you stick with Helicals, if you are after something 'sportier' and depending on the spec of your engine, then I might suggest the Gear Sets fitted to the Cooper S, these I found are nice without going overboard.


Edited by Moke Spider, 10 July 2015 - 07:16 AM.


#4 Guess-Works.com

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 08:51 AM

What he said /\ /\ /\



#5 Cooperman

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 12:20 PM

Excellent explanation Mr. Moke. The only reason for closer ratios is to suit engines with hotter cams so that the revs can be kept within the narrow and high rev band at all times.



#6 Spider

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:12 PM

Gee, thanks for the kind comments guys. I could have added a lot more, but I felt that would have put most readers to sleep!

 

I think we all know that they are also noisier than helicals. This is a feature of any straight cut gear set, automotive or otherwise. The reason for it is a straight cut gear can only ever have - at the very best - a tooth contact ratio of 1.1:1, more usually though only around the 1:1. Helicals on the other hand are generally around the 2:1 mark, though that depends on the helix angle and the width of the gears. This is also part of the reason why Helicals are stronger than Straights.

 

It is not at all possible to make straight cuts anywhere near as quiet as helicals.


Edited by Moke Spider, 11 July 2015 - 08:39 AM.


#7 Alex_B

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:31 PM

Well that certainly sums up the main points! A thread thats worth keeping in the bookmarks bank! 

Another benefit to straight cuts is the lack of side loading that occurs in comparison to helicals. Due to the shape of helical gears they want to wander away from each other under rotation which loads up the bearings and gearbox casing, with straight cuts this is avoided. 

I have just built up a straight cut box for my 16v engine that is in the works currently, but I didn't dive in looking for straight cuts without checking it out. I ended up producing a spreadsheet that calculates theoretical vehicle performance from engine dyno data, vehicle specs, tyre grip, gear ratios, etc and that allows you to plot the engine power band through each gear and decide on the correct ratios. This level of detail isnt required unless you have a lot of free time and are quite anal like myself but a quick calculation and comparing with other peoples builds will give you an idea which ratios you will require. 



#8 nicklouse

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:39 PM

What is often forgotten is the loads going into the transfer case from the drop gear idler. Which is why drop gears are one of the first things to change

The other reason to go for straight cut is there are less transmission losses and less side loads into the casing.

But as above the gears are not as strong.

Hence the lack of straight cut CWP sets,now they are all semi helical cut. (Motor sport use).

#9 Alex_B

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:58 PM

Slightly off pisté however: 

How feasible would a double helical transfer gearset be? Straight cut drops are very noisy however a double helical set would reduce the side loading into the casing yet still be reasonable noise wise. 



#10 nicklouse

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 10:04 PM

Cost is the issue. Who remembers the talk about the chain drive in place of the drops in the style is the old SAAB 2.3 motors.

#11 Spider

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 10:12 PM

Slightly off pisté however: 

How feasible would a double helical transfer gearset be? Straight cut drops are very noisy however a double helical set would reduce the side loading into the casing yet still be reasonable noise wise. 

 

Yes, that would be the bee's knee's, and dare I say, near silent. Definitely do-able, fairly costly though.

 

Just in respect of side loading from Helicals, as you guys have said, there are side loadings and losses from that, measurable losses, though, they are not huge or even big, the losses are fairly small. For a race car, sure, every 0.1% of HP gained, is a gain and it all adds up, though for most street car use, the losses from the side thrust is almost negligible, but definitely not zero.

 

In the case with drop gears - Idler Gear in particular - I feel that these are a bigger problem with regards to long term wear on the thrust faces of the aluminium cases. I feel that rather than look to expensive custom gears, maybe a simple locked and appropriate thrust material would be in order, ie, machine back the thrust faces, and fix some bronze plate in place.

 

The Primary Gear is another headache!  A mate of mine went to the trouble of making a roller bearing (yes nick ROLLER ;D ) version, with Thrust Roller (there's that word again!) Bearings too. Was a huge pile of work to do, I got tired just looking and thinking about it! 



#12 ryomini

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 03:57 AM

Thanks

I am slow but I'm learning some

still I want to do it because I want to do it,

I can hear it's noisy and probably would get annoying after a few trips but

if you don't try it you'll never know

 

for starters, keeping all other gears standard and putting straight cut in the gear box 1-4 (not reverse I guess)

would that be a good place to start ?

(In fact I'm trying to get to grips with 3 main areas, head porting, filters and manifolds / gears / lsd)



#13 Spider

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 05:31 AM

Fair enough.

 

Perhaps grab a complete-ish 2nd hand gearbox to build up from and then put your original one aside.

 

Some of the straight cuts sets retain the original 1st and reverse gears (as these are already straight cut), but many are complete sets.

 

Maybe consider one of these sets;-

 

https://www.minispar...px|Back to shop

 

http://www.med-engin.../gear-kits/test

 

Do your homework though on the ratios and consider with that your final drive ratio.



#14 carbon

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 08:22 AM

Superb post by Moke, captures key points. Adding to his comments about what different gear ratios would be like in practice on the road

 

Quoting Moke's post : 'In regards to the Gear Sets in the Gearbox itself, there are quite a number of different sets available, most are very close ratio, ie little ratio difference between gears. These are suited to very 'Cammy' engines that only have a narrow power band and don't suit street engine too well at all. First gear is quite high which suits race engines as they run low Final Drive ratios. On some sets, First Gear is almost the same as Second on an ordinary Helical set, so when driving around for a while, to give you an idea of what that would be like, don't use First. Your clutch won't last as well as it otherwise would. Race Cars 'get around' this by running Diff Ratios in the 4:1 to 5:1 ratio, by contrast, most of our street Minis, run in the 2.9:1 to 3.4:1 ratio. Those low suit race cars again with cammy engines as they don't work too well below 4000 RPM.'

 

And to get an idea of what it's like running a diff ratio of between 4:1 and 5:1 in a road car try driving around for a while without using top gear. The gearing in third gear with a 2.7 to 3.1 diff ratio is not much different from top gear using a 4:1 to 5:1 diff ratio.



#15 Guess-Works.com

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 08:35 AM

or, you can see the difference here..

 

http://www.guess-wor.../Tech/ratio.htm






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