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Herringbone Gears


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#31 Spider

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 07:43 PM

A point to note with the chain drive option is the loading on the gearbox casing will be different. The chain would pull upwards trying to rip the bearings out of the casing  rather than the drop gears which push sideways and distributed into the casing which it's designed for. Whether that would actually be a problem would have to be tested i suppose. 

 

Warwick Augustin did such a conversion about 15 years ago on his Racing Mini, while I understand it took him quite a while to sort, he didn't have those issues. I am told it was quite successful, but then again, I'm not sure why he did it in the first place.



#32 TimmyG

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 08:58 PM

Successfully tested in that case!



#33 nz_seamless

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 08:59 AM

For those wondering how they cut herringbone pattens without a relief cut up the centre, this is how. There are many things you can do or a manual mill better than cnc, but this isn't one.



#34 tiger99

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 04:19 PM

Thanks for that. It shows that there is a small notch machined in the internal corner of the V, because otherwise you would have a radius there and a shart point on the mating gear, which would foul it. So effectively there is a very minimal gap in the middle where there is no tooth contact. That explains how it can be done, and possibly on a relatively simple NC machine, using good software and the appropriate cutting tools..



#35 tiger99

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 05:10 PM

Oh, and if chain drive has been done successfully, which I never knew, but am not really surprised about, why do our spares suppliers not realise that it is a good thing and sell conversion kits? Lack of imagination, perhaps? It certainly needs more engineering design skill than some of the amateurish products which they supply. And, it is very likely to be cheaper than herringbone gears. The geometry of a sprocket for a roller chain is wuite simple and easily machined. You can also change the gear ratio without using the bodged tooth geometry needed to make those dreadful drop gear sets with non-unity ratio. The problem is that the crankshaft and gearbox input shaft centres are where they are, and can't be moved, chain comes in fixed pitches, it is not a good idea to need a tensioning idler if it can be avoided, so to make it all fit, there are constraints on the gear diameter and therefore the number of teeth.

 

I suspect that the original reason for doing it was to reduce power loss and so get better performance, the elimination of the idler gear problems would have just been a useful side effect. The chain is going to be more efficient than any of the alternatives.

 

The question of the gearbox casing stress was a good one. Going from tension to compression in the alloy casing could have resulted in buckling, especially of the thin transfer case. However it tolerates the horrid, oblique loading of the idler without complaining, so it is not entirely surprising that it is ok with a chain drive, although such problems do always need to be considered carefully.

 

The best way forward from the engineering perspective would be to find out exactly how the chain conversion was done. I think the final solution may already have been developed.



#36 Ethel

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 05:33 PM

A bearing in the idler would also reduce some of the inertia that may be the reason it was used in the first place, saving the synchros even more.

Good point on the chain loading. Without the idler there'd be some extra space to engineer some bracing.

#37 nicklouse

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 05:57 PM

There was a chain solution don't back in the day. I say that as I heard about it circa 1986/7 and it was done some time before that.

It was also done in a number of production cars but they used a triplex chin drive.

#38 Tupers

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:19 PM

There used to be a page about these on the MK1 Performance Conversions website but it's gone now. 

 

chain_drive.jpg



#39 Tupers

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:39 PM

The SAAB 90 used a chain to transfer drive from the crank to the gearbox. 

type86.jpg

 

 

PrimaryDrive.jpg

 

DSCF9225.JPG

 

Source



#40 Spider

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:41 PM

Didn't the 1800 series use a Chain?  I'm not up to speed with the model, it may have only been the Autos.

 

The week link in the casing is the centre web where the Main Shaft Bearing mounts. It was beefed up in later boxes (The DAM5626 Cases) but they are still prone to failure.

 

<Edit: Just about every proper 4WD made uses a Chain in the Transfer Case >


Edited by Moke Spider, 30 November 2015 - 07:43 PM.





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