30 replies to this topic

[MontpellierVanMan]

Could someone formally confirm what I think I've read elsewhere, as an aside, regarding half-shaft management when removing and refitting the engine ?

 

Until now I have always split at least the top ball joints, to give myself more room to get the Pot Joints off their clips on the diff output shafts - and often split top and bottom and ended up pulling out the hubs and half-shafts completely, which of course means opening up the pot-joints since they won't go through the subframe.

 

(NB Can anyone explain WHY that feature was designed into the Mini ? It appears perfectly possible to make a slightly bigger aperture so that the Pot complete with its boot will pass through ?)

 

I've read that it is possible just to pop the Pots off the diff, then - as the engine is raised further - move it left to get the right pot off, and right to get the left pot off ?

 

Is that indeed the case, is that how everyone else does it, and if so why didn't I learn this 35 years ago ?! And can you leave the radiator on its mountings and still get the movement you need ?

 

Many thanks in advance for your informed suggestions.

 

PS Much of what is written about getting the Pot Joints off their clips fails to mention that they come off really easily as long as there are TWO sources of leverage (between the diff cover bolt heads for example) spaced at 180° to each other - references to using a wedge or a big chisel miss the point.

 

It can be done like that but requires unecessary effort and butchery.

 

It's not for nothing that the original forked tool 18G1240 applies its efforts across a diameter - which tool is now available again as a copy from The Usual Suspects for about £27. Unfortunately even the Mini Spares site refers to it as a wedge, which it is decidely not ..........

 

Personally I use a couple of pry-bars and suitable spacers, having lost my own original 18G1240 20 years ago, but there is indeed no substitute for the pleasure in using The Right Tool.

[MRA]

Hi,

 

1) undo as you would to remove, however do not undo anything to do with your hubs, so remove starter, dizzy cap & rotor arm, engine mounts, once you get to this point you can lift it a little way and push the engine towards the LHS (this is ALWAYS taken from the drivers seat)

2) now remove the inner CV from the gearbox and drop it below the diff unit

3) now push the engine towards the RHS, you may have to lift the engine a little more, you only lift it enough and no more.

4) now remove the LHS inner CV from the diff side cover (gearbox) and drop down.

5) now lift, ensuring the engine is free to be lifted a good check as you lift is always worth the time.

6) once you get the gearbox at or above the bonnet line you can remove the speedo cable.

 

Note:  if you have the 88 onwards master cylinder / servo combined unit, undo the master cylinder off the servo and pull out, there is an "O" ring seal and is often siliconed in to place, make sure it is sealed when you refit. now undo the servo and bracket off the bulkhead, this is 2 nuts and 1 bolt (captive nut) and the cotter pin, then remove this allows the master cylinder to be moved without damage to allow the engine to pass, do not allow the M/cyl to be rotated round as this will allow air into the system which obviously is not good.

 

I have been using this method for about 35 years....  no idea why you didn't hear about it, maybe I didn't tell you

 

The radiator and cowling needs to be removed.

 

I use a tool that I developed 25+ years ago when I lost my BMC tool, I disagree that 1 tool is unnecessary effort and butchery, never had to hit one so hard that it caused damage

Edited by MRA, 24 April 2016 - 09:14 PM.

[MontpellierVanMan]

Many thanks for that, managed fine.
I think the pot joint tool issue depends very much on how good a fit the clip on the splined shaft is within the pot, and I may have been unlucky in that I have had several cases where they REALLY didn't want to let go, and a single sided effort got me nowhere.
Or should that read LUCKY, as now I have an issue where the radiator side pot joint won't stay popped on its clip on the diff output splines .........
It takes up a position with about a 3/8 gap.
Presumably the pot outer is meant to be clipped so that the nose is fully through the bronze output support bushes, no ?
And the adjustable length of the half shaft componentry is obtained by the balls sliding in the pot ?
Is this an issue and should I pull that side down to change the diff output shaft clip ?

Edited by MontpellierVanMan, 05 May 2016 - 02:07 AM.

[nicklouse]

Why the subframe is as it is is because they did not change it from when they had the old yokes and cross couplings.

[nicklouse]

Yes the movement it taken up by the internals of the pot joint. The pot joint cup should not move.

[Pairaminis]

How about a brief explanation of the refit.  I'm nearing the installation of my rebuilt 998 in my non-brake servo '84 sedan and will be fitting new pot joints.  There are no pot joints currently installed on the differentials and the complete front suspension is in place on the car.  I know that normally explanations like that given by MRA have the added line "installation is the reverse."  But I'd like a little more info if possible.  Can I install the axles and pot joints onto the outer CVs and just lower the engine down to them, do the side-to-side shifting as previously explained and somehow attach the new pop joints and axles as the engine is lowered and shifted? 

Jack

[nicklouse]

Yes. Or you can fit the complete pot joints to the dif. And the fit he suspension and drive shafts later.

[MontpellierVanMan]

Jack,

Like yourself, I find there are times when simple explanations written in words of one syllable, but with more of them, would help.

I am perplexed, for example, how you could fit the "complete" pot joints when the half-shafts have to be fitted to them in order to fit their boots ?

You'll probably find your Transatlantic cousins will grasp your questions better using half-shaft rather than axle as a term ; for me at least, the axle is the guided part of the shaft that sits in the hub bearings.

That's just a well intentioned aside rather than a correction, please understand.

The next time I remove - or fit - my motor, and this will be contested by many, I am sure, I will split the top suspension joints but then bolt them - using a couple of simple fixtures - such that the conical pins are held close to the top suspension arms so that nothing flops around.

This gives a lot more side-room when juggling with the pots and the diff output shafts when removing or refitting an engine.

Yes, it can be done without this - I can even get my engine complete with the radiator in and out without recourse to this technique - but it is unnecessarily fraught, and splitting the top ball joints only takes minutes.

The other thing I will do is neatly grind a small step on each pot, a 1/16 deep sharp edge will do, so that I can get a drift against it and encourage the pot's location on the splines and onto the circlips - if your pots don't go fully home, like one of mine won't right now, there is no way of putting any kind of lateral effort on them because the boot precludes any end pressure. Again, sure, you can get a big Mole wrench (? in the US ?) on them and then tap them, but it is messy. And getting the Mole on the clutch side one with some exhaust headers is almost impossible.

I suspect it would be possible to make some kind of tool that makes use of the waisting or groove in the half-shaft to grip it and apply a side-load, but a step on the pot is easier if less elegant.

I hope that gives you some food for thought !

[skoughi]

I've recently had my engine in and out a couple of times and have split the pot joints and to be honest felt it was easy enough to get the engine back in and out like this. One thing I didn't do was to mark both half's so they go back together in the same position, so if they wear out prematurely then it's my fault! One thing doing it this way is that you get to re-pack the joint with grease, get to check the rubber boot for splits and fit a new cable tie. I also opened up the hole in the subframe that the shaft goes through so that the driveshaft can be pulled out as a complete unit if need be.

[GraemeC]

how you could fit the "complete" pot joints when the half-shafts have to be fitted to them in order to fit their boots ?

The pot joints, with boots, are entirely independent of the shafts. ie the boots DO NOT fix to the shafts.
The are secured to the inner member of the joint and the outer member. If you look up a pot joint on MiniSpares.com you'll see the boot is part of the joint only.

[MontpellierVanMan]

"The pot joints, with boots, are entirely independent of the shafts. ie the boots DO NOT fix to the shafts."

Now THAT explains a whole lot of my current difficulties ! What a p--t.

I knew something wasn't right.

Thanks for the illumination.

[MRA]

How about a brief explanation of the refit.  I'm nearing the installation of my rebuilt 998 in my non-brake servo '84 sedan and will be fitting new pot joints.  There are no pot joints currently installed on the differentials and the complete front suspension is in place on the car.  I know that normally explanations like that given by MRA have the added line "installation is the reverse."  But I'd like a little more info if possible.  Can I install the axles and pot joints onto the outer CVs and just lower the engine down to them, do the side-to-side shifting as previously explained and somehow attach the new pop joints and axles as the engine is lowered and shifted? 

Jack

 

It literally is as I said above but in reverse, you don't touch the suspension as that is bad practice, lower the engine into the engine bay as it goes down in to the engine bay stop and fit the speedo cable

 

1) Lower it down and once it is just above the inner CV (these are a sliding birfield joint which allows for the length change) move the engine towards the RHS of the engine bay (remember LEFT & RIGHT are always taken as sitting in the drivers seat) refit the LH driveshaft into the gearbox (this will require a wriggle) then allow the engines weight to gently knock them on/into the gearbox.

2) Moving the engine over to the left hand side you can get the other inner CV above the output shaft and slowly lower the unit till it just becomes almost too tight to refit, now lift the engine about 1/4" and refit the RH side inner CV onto the output shaft, once almost fitted you may need to gently knock it "home" by using the engines mass.

3) Lower the engine, refit the bolts, engine mount to subframe at the RHS (clutch end) always refit from top pointing down for safety reasons.

now refit the other engine mounting bolts....

 

Now you have all the main points the rest is simply bolting bits on

 

This is a cut away of a Birfield Sliding CV

 

 New Picture.bmp   971.24K   36 downloads

[rokemester]

Thanks to this and other great threads about refitting the Mini engine. For a 1989 we were able to install the motor with the radiator on, carb off, had to remove alternator part way through drop, removed distributor cap part way through. The transmission driveshafts were a bugger as described. The left passenger side went in with no drama. The right driver side with the longer driveshaft gave us problems. We had to remove the tie rod ends and eventually got it in but it sticks out further from the differential than the passenger side.

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[rokemester]

...it goes without saying that the brake booster and clutch hydraulics were out of the car!!

[nicklouse]

Thanks to this and other great threads about refitting the Mini engine. For a 1989 we were able to install the motor with the radiator on, carb off, had to remove alternator part way through drop, removed distributor cap part way through. The transmission driveshafts were a bugger as described. The left passenger side went in with no drama. The right driver side with the longer driveshaft gave us problems. We had to remove the tie rod ends and eventually got it in but it sticks out further from the differential than the passenger side.

You know the fan was on the wrong way around.