29 replies to this topic

[Alice Dooper]

I use the fast road Minitastic springs with lowered GAZ dampers and I'm very very pleased with the results. We did find that they worked best at very slightly above or at normal ride height with a softer damper setting. After removing the old knackered donuts of the car, it looked positively like an off-roader to us!!

I'm not a well qualified engineer but a previous life had me thrashing around with noisy horns and flashy lights. The car handling feels a bit better, the stopping distance is the same and the road holding is better. I wouldn't want to mess with the uniqueness of that Mini feel and it didn't. But I don't thrash this car very hard, it deserves a bit of respect in its age and was rebuilt for good long drives and mild craic on country roads. I can't discuss properly with an engineer but I can tell you the resultant feel. I do respect the knowledge of the doubters, guess it's just going to be a marmite subject.

He's not very easy to get hold of. His website expired long ago. I found that it was best to phone and leave a message if necessary.

[Cooperman]

It seems as though you are comparing the new coil springs with old and clapped out rubber cone springs and dampers.

If you had fitted decent new rubber cone springs and the new dampers the road-holding, ride & handling would have been even better than with the coil springs.

From an engineering view it is impossible for coil springs to be better than rubber cone springs, because the car requires accurate rising rate springs, which is what the rubber springs give. You might, if very accurately designed and manufactured, get a coil spring with exactly the same rate and load/displacement, but it is doubtful if it can actually be improved upon. How could an improvement be achieved.

Now for a racing application coil springs can be ideal. When racing the tracks are effectively totally smooth. Thus a high initial spring rate will help overcome any initial roll-understeer when 'turning-in' on entering a corner. A rising rate spring is unnecessary as the high rate can be linear rather than increase with deflection.

[Mini Manannán]

I inherited Minitastic coils when I bought my car.  While the ride is really good on smooth roads, and here's the rub, the roads are mostly sheite on this rock.  So like Orange Phantom I have plans to swap over to the rubber cones.  The physics don't lie!

[finch661]

are minitastic still around?

[haz]

^{I have watsons rally coil springs in mine and I'm currently in the process of swapping them out for red dot rubber cones.}

 

^{The springs are too bouncy and unpredictable for my liking. The ride is decent though, I must admit.}

[Cooperman]

To repeat what I and others have said many times before, there is no way a coil spring can show any sort of improvement over the original rubber cone springs for road use.

For racing where a very high initial spring rate is beneficial for 'turn-in' response on a totally smooth track, they are not suitable for use on bumpy roads.

[finch661]

To repeat what I and others have said many times before, there is no way a coil spring can show any sort of improvement over the original rubber cone springs for road use.

For racing where a very high initial spring rate is beneficial for 'turn-in' response on a totally smooth track, they are not suitable for use on bumpy roads.

I totally agree cooperman! 

 

For minitastic, their website seems to be down, hence i was wondering if they have finally disappeared? 

[Spider]

I think Minitastic have gone.

 

There's also been lots and lots said on the forum on springs vs rubber for some time now.

 

All I would like to pass on in this regards is if you are swapping over to coil springs, keep an open mind about them.

[haz]

For a road car used for commuting or general pootling around, I'd say they're better than cones for comfort & the car's geometry won't change over time due to cone sag.

 

Any track or spirited road driving - forget it. They're not up to it. They induce more roll due to the lack of spring progression, they bounce unpredictably and they occasionally bind. None of which are desirable traits in the slightest.

 

You could reduce the roll with an ARB perhaps, I'm not sure what you could do about the bounce. I have the 'centre' spring for my kit but I've never bothered to fit them. Think double valve springs. An extra central spring to add circa 10% stiffness. Maybe that'd help too.... Thing is, cones are tried and tested and we know they work and how to tune/adjust for them. I'm not going to spend loads of time and money developing a spring conversion that might never match the cones.

 

....If it ain't broke...

[hhhh]

^{I have watsons rally coil springs in mine and I'm currently in the process of swapping them out for red dot rubber cones.}

 

^{The springs are too bouncy and unpredictable for my liking. The ride is decent though, I must admit.}

I think the solution if you're going to keep the springs is to increase the damping force. The rising rate rubber cones are self damping to some degree requiring less damping force from the dampers.

[cal844]

Cones are better, enough said. Minis were never built to have a modern car ride.....

[hhhh]

Cones are better, enough said. Minis were never built to have a modern car ride.....

Agreed, except maybe in 1959 they had a modern car ride.

[nicklouse]

 

^{I have watsons rally coil springs in mine and I'm currently in the process of swapping them out for red dot rubber cones.}

 

^{The springs are too bouncy and unpredictable for my liking. The ride is decent though, I must admit.}

I think the solution if you're going to keep the springs is to increase the damping force. The rising rate rubber cones are self damping to some degree requiring less damping force from the dampers.

 

nope does not work there is not a single aftermarket spring kit that actually works or puts the springs in the correct position.

 

they are all total utter crap unless you have a trailer queen or drive like a granny.

 

yes i have coil overs on my race car and yes there are many Mini race cars with coils but just about everyone has the coil overs mounted nothing like any aftermarket kit.

the rear is a little better but again the hits have nothing in line putting stupid forces into the shocks. not to mention the stubaxle pin size.

 

if you want to fit coils do some research as to how the mounting position of a coil effects the spring rate.

[Cooperman]

First of all forget any co-relation between race/track cars and road cars. Race tracks are totally smooth compared with the average road surface. Th idea of coil springs for racing is to give a very high initial spring rate so that when 'turning-in- to a corner, there is reduced body roll and thus better instant steering response. Race car springs do not need to be rising rate as a low deflection to load factor is needed and that can remain constant due to the required suspension being very short and damping very stiff as well. On a road such a set-up would be horrendous and virtually undriveable.

 

For road use it is impossible for a coil spring to present the same overall characteristics as a rubber spring with a low initial rate increasing at a non-linear rate until full suspension deflection is reached. What coil spring is available which can give the accurate deflection to load figures provided by rubber springs? The answer is NONE.

 

The big problem is the propensity of coil springs to 'coil-bind' at high deflection which in turn can cause suspension failure.

[Spider]

 

^{I have watsons rally coil springs in mine and I'm currently in the process of swapping them out for red dot rubber cones.}

 

^{The springs are too bouncy and unpredictable for my liking. The ride is decent though, I must admit.}

I think the solution if you're going to keep the springs is to increase the damping force. The rising rate rubber cones are self damping to some degree requiring less damping force from the dampers.

 

 

Rubber has a lot of self damping qualities in it, basically a built in shock absorber.

 

This is in part why so many who have gone over to coils say the ride is more 'complaint'. It's not that it is 'more complaint', it is that the ride is under damped !!

 

The other aspect of the Self Damping qualities of the Rubber (in conjunction with the Trumpet) is that just like the rising rate of it's spring medium, so to does the damping rate also rise and fall in 'tune' with the spring rate. 

 

First of all forget any co-relation between race/track cars and road cars. Race tracks are totally smooth compared with the average road surface. Th idea of coil springs for racing is to give a very high initial spring rate so that when 'turning-in- to a corner, there is reduced body roll and thus better instant steering response. Race car springs do not need to be rising rate as a low deflection to load factor is needed and that can remain constant due to the required suspension being very short and damping very stiff as well. On a road such a set-up would be horrendous and virtually undriveable.

 

For road use it is impossible for a coil spring to present the same overall characteristics as a rubber spring with a low initial rate increasing at a non-linear rate until full suspension deflection is reached. What coil spring is available which can give the accurate deflection to load figures provided by rubber springs? The answer is NONE.

 

The big problem is the propensity of coil springs to 'coil-bind' at high deflection which in turn can cause suspension failure.

 

The other aspect I'd like to add to Cooperman's words here in regards to Track vs Street is that the ratio between Sprung vs Un-sprung weights is less on a Track Car, is there is usually more Un-sprung mass to Sprung mass,while not desirable, is usually the way it works out. With this situation, Coils can be better.