15 replies to this topic

[barryc]

Hi all,

I am looking for some help please, I have seriously run out of patience with my mini. Its been a nut and bolt resto and I have taken 7 years to do it but I can't get it started at all. Really fed up with it, hoping for some help or it is in danger of being sold.

Bit of background, it's a 1 litre 88 mayfair, totally standard but with a gold seal replacement engine with an interia starter (rather than the pre-engaged that its meant to have).

I have fitted a brand new loom and have altered (I believe) to suit the new starter.

However after a marathon "starting up challenge" the White/Pink trace wire burnt right thru the insulation from the Coil side backwards. Why would this happen? I have a 15 amp fuse in the fuse box for this wire. It has also been suggested to me that it might be something to do with the "ballast resistor". However having looked at the wire I can't see any evidence of a resistor? What is a "ballast resistor and where would be hiding? The coil I have been using is off a metro Turbo.........because it was lying around. Could this be to blame? I have a spare lucas gold sport coil, could I use that instead.

Also, as the loom was originally for a pre engaged engine, the white/red trace wire stops at the ignition switch/relay. Having looked at the wiring diagram for an interia engine, it looks as tho the wire should continue to the starter relay, am I correct?

At the moment the car just won't start, despite having a strong spark at the plugs, points and coil. Fuelling is ok, plugs are wet after cranking. I even poured a small amount of petrol directly into the carb intake to make sure fuelling was ok. Timing has been tried at TDC and 8 Degrees advanced but still to no luck.

WOuld the above problems/suggestions about the coil, and wires make any difference? Or is my mini destined for the "unfinished project" section of the classified.

sorry for such a long post but I have run out of ideas.

Many thanks

Barry

[Retro_10s]

definatly change the coil mate! Lucas sport coil is gooooood, could well be the metro tubby coil playing havoc though i'm not certain. but guessing fomr the info you've given about the sparks etc... it could well be the problem.

also, is there fuel in the float chamber?

[Dan]

Your car has a ballasted ignition system. The pink/white wire from the ignition switch to the coil is itself the ballast resistor. The white/yellow is the starter bypass for the system. Your car needs to use a ballasted ignition coil or you will burn out parts of the system. This is a coil designed to work at a lower voltage as that is what the ballast system delivers. If you fit a 12 volt coil to it you will burn out the points and blow the condensor very quickly. This is probably what has burned out the ballast wire.

Do not use a Metro Turbo coil and definitely do not use a Sports Coil (Lucas never made a ballasted sports coil). There is no fuse in the ignition system.

It is fine for the cranking supply from the ignition switch to finish at the starter relay provided that the brown/red from the realy is then trigering the remote solenoid.

[Retro_10s]

definatly change the coil mate! Lucas sport coil is gooooood, could well be the metro tubby coil playing havoc though i'm not certain. but guessing fomr the info you've given about the sparks etc... it could well be the problem.

sorry about giving wrong advice! :'( i thought i understood but i didn't , I do know now though, I'm very very sorry.

Mike.

[barryc]

definatly change the coil mate! Lucas sport coil is gooooood, could well be the metro tubby coil playing havoc though i'm not certain. but guessing fomr the info you've given about the sparks etc... it could well be the problem.

sorry about giving wrong advice! :'( i thought i understood but i didn't , I do know now though, I'm very very sorry.

Mike.

Mike no problems, thanks for your thoughts tho.

Dan, it all makes sense now. Reckon a quick coil change, new points and condenser are what is needed.

Will keep you guys posted. If all else fails, does anyone want to buy another mini!

Edited by barryc, 18 September 2006 - 08:05 AM.

[barryc]

definatly change the coil mate! Lucas sport coil is gooooood, could well be the metro tubby coil playing havoc though i'm not certain. but guessing fomr the info you've given about the sparks etc... it could well be the problem.

sorry about giving wrong advice! :'( i thought i understood but i didn't , I do know now though, I'm very very sorry.

Mike.

Mike no problems, thanks for your thoughts tho.

Dan, it all makes sense now. Reckon a quick coil change, new points and condenser are what is needed.

Will keep you guys posted. If all else fails, does anyone want to buy another mini!

Ok changed the coil for a ballast ignition type, replaced previously burnt out ballast wire/resistor (pink and white wire). Connected the battery went to crank the car and the Ballast resistor/wire has burnt out again! Any ideas as I am really stumped now!

[dklawson]

I didn't post to this thread earlier as I thought it was all sorted out. I have a couple of observations that may help. Forgive me if they don't.

You said you have the inertia starter installed. What solenoid are you using? The cars with inertia starters and non-ballasted (standard) ignitions used solenoids with three terminals: Main battery feed in, feed out to starter motor, and the starter keyswitch (white/red) wire. Later cars that used the inertia starter with ballasted ignitions should have a fourth (switched) contact for the white/yellow wire (as used on Canadian spec cars). If you're using a three terminal solenoid and have connected the white/yellow to the starter motor (large) pole, there's a chance that you're passing too much current through both the white/yellow and the pink wires. However, you didn't mention any melting of the white/yellow wire did you?

If it's not solenoid related, go back and carefully check your wiring again. The white/red wire you inquired about earlier should go between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid as you suggested. Check that your coil is wired correctly... the (-) terminal should have a wire on it going to the distributor (and possibly a tachometer wire connected if you have a tach). The coil (+) terminal should have at least two connections. The white/yellow wire should go from a fourth, switched terminal on the solenoid to coil (+). The pink wire coming from the ignition switch should also go to coil (+).

The operating scheme would be:
Switch on ignition. Current flows through the switch down the pink wire to the coil. With the points closed, the internal resistance of the coil and the pink resistor wire will add up to about 3 ohms and this will allow about 4 amps to flow through the circuit to earth/ground.

Turn the switch to engage the starter and current flows down the white/red wire to pull the solenoid in. When the solenoid engages it will supply power to the white/yellow wire at a full 12V. This wire carries the current directly to the coil (+) terminal, through the coil (1.5 ohm) and on to earth/ground. This allows up to 8 amps to flow. This higher current only flows while you are cranking the car. During normal running (when the solenoid is disengaged) current flows through the pink wire to the coil at the above mentioned 4 amps.

I know this is a lot to take in, but review your solenoid type and make sure that you've correctly connected the white/red, white/yellow, and pink wires to the solenoid and coil respectively.

[barryc]

I didn't post to this thread earlier as I thought it was all sorted out. I have a couple of observations that may help. Forgive me if they don't.

You said you have the inertia starter installed. What solenoid are you using? The cars with inertia starters and non-ballasted (standard) ignitions used solenoids with three terminals: Main battery feed in, feed out to starter motor, and the starter keyswitch (white/red) wire. Later cars that used the inertia starter with ballasted ignitions should have a fourth (switched) contact for the white/yellow wire (as used on Canadian spec cars). If you're using a three terminal solenoid and have connected the white/yellow to the starter motor (large) pole, there's a chance that you're passing too much current through both the white/yellow and the pink wires. However, you didn't mention any melting of the white/yellow wire did you?

If it's not solenoid related, go back and carefully check your wiring again. The white/red wire you inquired about earlier should go between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid as you suggested. Check that your coil is wired correctly... the (-) terminal should have a wire on it going to the distributor (and possibly a tachometer wire connected if you have a tach). The coil (+) terminal should have at least two connections. The white/yellow wire should go from a fourth, switched terminal on the solenoid to coil (+). The pink wire coming from the ignition switch should also go to coil (+).

The operating scheme would be:
Switch on ignition. Current flows through the switch down the pink wire to the coil. With the points closed, the internal resistance of the coil and the pink resistor wire will add up to about 3 ohms and this will allow about 4 amps to flow through the circuit to earth/ground.

Turn the switch to engage the starter and current flows down the white/red wire to pull the solenoid in. When the solenoid engages it will supply power to the white/yellow wire at a full 12V. This wire carries the current directly to the coil (+) terminal, through the coil (1.5 ohm) and on to earth/ground. This allows up to 8 amps to flow. This higher current only flows while you are cranking the car. During normal running (when the solenoid is disengaged) current flows through the pink wire to the coil at the above mentioned 4 amps.

I know this is a lot to take in, but review your solenoid type and make sure that you've correctly connected the white/red, white/yellow, and pink wires to the solenoid and coil respectively.

Doug,

Firstly many thanks for such a comprehensive reply, I really appreciate it.
I am using the 3 post solenoid which came with the engine, I have connected the Yello/white to the starter pole as you mention although the wire is completely fine. The WHite and pink is from the ignition switch is connected to the coil as you also mention.

The only thing that is confusing me is how the white/red wire. Currently I have a large red brown wire that is connected to the soleniod, should the red /white wire replace this?

[dklawson]

See if you can find a wiring diagram for an older car with the inertia starter as well as a diagram for a car that would need your new harness.

The white/red wire should go between the ignition switch and the small spade lug on the left side of the solenoid. This wire does NOT go to any of the spade lugs that may be on the BIG studs on the solenoid. Repeating... the white/red wire goes to the little spade lug on the left side of the solenoid, the terminal will be all by itself. The heavy brown/red wire probably comes/goes to the fuse box and should be on the BIG stud on the solenoid that has the big cable going to the battery attached to it. The other big stud on the solenoid should have the short length of cable going to the starter motor itself.

The white/yellow wire really should NOT be connected directly to the solenoid on a three terminal solenoid. The only place you can even think of doing this... would be to connect it to the big lug whose short cable goes to the starter motor. HOWEVER, if you do that, all the time your ignition is switched on, current is trying to flow through the pink wire, down the white/yellow wire, and finally into/through the starter motor. That's going to put too much continuous current through both the white/yellow and the pink wires. It's not good for either. In effect, your ignition circuit will be trying to power the starter motor all the time. Some people have told me that a large power diode can be placed in series with the white/yellow wire to prevent this... but I've never tried it.

For the 3-terminal solenoid, see:
http://www.aston.co....t...t_img&id=18
at http://www.aston.co....id/9/model_id/3
The connection point for the white/red wire connection is the spade terminal half way down the left edge of the part shown in the picture.

The 4-terminal solenoid can be seen at:
http://www.holden.co...gesL/SRB335.jpg
Its 4th terminal is pointing out by itself from the right side of the solenoid.
Available in the U.K. from:
http://www.holden.co...s...&group=020#
and
http://www.vehicle-w...l/battisol.html
and
part #ADU5728 from Mini Spares
or
part#ELC3007 from DSN Classics
among countless others.

You really need to get the right solenoid. Failing that, disconnect and tape off the white/yellow wire so it's not connected. You'll have lower voltage at the coil while cranking but you won't be trying to power the starter all the time. Make sure you sort out the white/red wire also. Remember, it connects to the starter position on the ignition switch in the car and to the left-most stand alone spade lug on the starter solenoid at the other end.

[barryc]

See if you can find a wiring diagram for an older car with the inertia starter as well as a diagram for a car that would need your new harness.

The white/red wire should go between the ignition switch and the small spade lug on the left side of the solenoid. This wire does NOT go to any of the spade lugs that may be on the BIG studs on the solenoid. Repeating... the white/red wire goes to the little spade lug on the left side of the solenoid, the terminal will be all by itself. The heavy brown/red wire probably comes/goes to the fuse box and should be on the BIG stud on the solenoid that has the big cable going to the battery attached to it. The other big stud on the solenoid should have the short length of cable going to the starter motor itself.

The white/yellow wire really should NOT be connected directly to the solenoid on a three terminal solenoid. The only place you can even think of doing this... would be to connect it to the big lug whose short cable goes to the starter motor. HOWEVER, if you do that, all the time your ignition is switched on, current is trying to flow through the pink wire, down the white/yellow wire, and finally into/through the starter motor. That's going to put too much continuous current through both the white/yellow and the pink wires. It's not good for either. In effect, your ignition circuit will be trying to power the starter motor all the time. Some people have told me that a large power diode can be placed in series with the white/yellow wire to prevent this... but I've never tried it.

For the 3-terminal solenoid, see:
http://www.aston.co....t...t_img&id=18
at http://www.aston.co....id/9/model_id/3
The connection point for the white/red wire connection is the spade terminal half way down the left edge of the part shown in the picture.

The 4-terminal solenoid can be seen at:
http://www.holden.co...gesL/SRB335.jpg
Its 4th terminal is pointing out by itself from the right side of the solenoid.
Available in the U.K. from:
http://www.holden.co...s...&group=020#
and
http://www.vehicle-w...l/battisol.html
and
part #ADU5728 from Mini Spares
or
part#ELC3007 from DSN Classics
among countless others.

You really need to get the right solenoid. Failing that, disconnect and tape off the white/yellow wire so it's not connected. You'll have lower voltage at the coil while cranking but you won't be trying to power the starter all the time. Make sure you sort out the white/red wire also. Remember, it connects to the starter position on the ignition switch in the car and to the left-most stand alone spade lug on the starter solenoid at the other end.

Once again, thank you for the indepth reply. Electrics is one of these areas that I am not too sure about. All i know is that something isn't right. Will get a new solenoid and give you an update.

With thanks
Barry

[fikus01]

how are you getting on with it!! as with dk lawson i didn post because i thought all was sorted!! if it keeps burning out the ballast wire i suspect you have connected something wrong when converting over the loom to inertia!! very easy to do!! it could be getting a back feed!! they dont melt easily!!

where are you based?? if ur local-ish to me i cud pop over and have a look!!

[barryc]

how are you getting on with it!! as with dk lawson i didn post because i thought all was sorted!! if it keeps burning out the ballast wire i suspect you have connected something wrong when converting over the loom to inertia!! very easy to do!! it could be getting a back feed!! they dont melt easily!!

where are you based?? if ur local-ish to me i cud pop over and have a look!!

Hi folks,

Good bit of progress today, I sat down with the Haynes manual and drew out the wiring for a 60's car (which I believe is roughly the age of the engine), an 84 model (the last of the ballast ignition cars with a inertia starter and solenoid), and an 88 car which mine is. Having broken the diagrams down to my simple level of understanding I was able to see exactly what DK Lawson was talking about. Anyway this morning I ordered and picked up my new solenoid, and set about adapting the wiring to suit.

Its now sparking cleanly and strongly at the coil, points and spark plugs, fueling is good and no wires have burnt out. Just need to get the timing set and we should be rocking. This is a BIG step forward and I really can't thank D K Lawson enough for his comprehensive answers and the time spent helping me. Makes these forums all worth while. Thanks again.

fikus01, thanks for the offer, I am based near Glasgow which I reckon might be a bit out of you way. haha thanks tho.

Also, aside from everything else, fitted my 12*6" 4 spoke revolutions with black centres today. Even put the 8 ball valve caps on. It might not go yet but it looks sweeeeet!

Barry

[fikus01]

glasgow!! why thats just aroudn the corner compared to australlia!!

[barryc]

guess what??????????????????? Go on Guess

[miniboo]

its working?