39 replies to this topic

[Gavroche]

Hey, 

 

I installed new upper and lower ball joints on my mini, and got into some weird trouble.

Following the instructions of the technical manual. I mounted the upper ball joint without the blocking washer and measured the play "A" (see attachment image). Problem: the value was less than .9mm which should be the minimal value as the manual says that the shims thickness should be taken as e = A - .9.

I tried to mount it without any shim, and the ball joint was clearly free to move. To reduce the play, I put a flat washer (~1mm high) under the ball seat just to push the ball a bit higher and get a wider play. The flat washer I used is a classic flat washer that is used for screws and bolts with the best fitting dimensions.

 

Is it a good method ? Is there any risk that the seat comes out of its space in the ball joint and destroys everything ? Is a flat washer resistant enough to the constraints inside the ball joint ?Is there any official solution to this problem ?

 

Looking forward for your answers,

Quentin

Attached Files

•  BallJoint2.png   68.95K   3 downloads

[pete l]

Not a good idea.

 

There usually is no need for a washer. Something is wrong, i reckon a dodgy set of ball joints

[Swift_General]

No not a good idea! If I have understoood your correct you have no shims, just the lock washer, and still you have to 'pack' the ball 1mm up to take slop out? How have you tightened the dome nut up? What ball joints are you using?

[Gavroche]

Ok thank you for the answers !

 

Well, when I took the first measure of the play 'A' (as showed in my previous figure) without the lock washer. I do have a .75mm play which is lower than the thickness of the lock washer (~1mm). So if I put the nut on the top with the lock washer and no shim, and tighten to the 100Nm torque ( with a torque wrench), there is still a huge play in the ball joint (no force needed to move the ball joint). So I put a flat washer under the ball seat (as showed in this second figure in red) to lift the ball up a bit. I took the same measure 'A' (no shim nor lock washer) and this time I got something higher than a millimeter. Then I put some shims to get the wanted ball joint behaviour.

 

I hope it was better explained.

 

Quentin

Attached Files

•  BallJoint2.png   69.72K   3 downloads

[Gavroche]

I took my ball joints at MOSS shop :

http://www.moss-euro...t-per-side.html

 

The reference corresponds to the "genuine" reference of MINISPARE.

 

By the way the lock washer was so badly design it did not fit well with the grease fitting. The hole in the washer was too much above the the hole in the hub ! I was surprised as those should be "genuine parts".

[Spider]

As the others have said, there's an issue here and fitting a (soft) washer under the Ball Joint Seat isn't a good idea.

 

As the joints come in a Hub Set, have you tried swapping parts between this pair?

 

Are you able to post up a photo of your hub with the Ball Joint Removed?  In particular, I'd like to see the bore where the seat fits.

 

Also, just working off the photo on the Moss web page, those don't quite look like Mini Spares Ball Joints.

[FlyingScot]

The balljoint kit is just that, a kit of parts. You have to fit the locking washer first then the shims. If you don't fit the locking washer you won't be able to close the gap up with the shims. The reference number (part number) is used widely it does not imply that they are all the same. If the locking washer cannot be fitted due to miss alignment with the grease nipple hole I would be returning them.

FS

[Rorf]

That diagram with part No. 8 referring to various items is as confusing as heck. Are you sure the small concave cup is in place (the ball of the ball joint fits in here). Fitting washers below the ball joint is a very dangerous thing to do.

 

As mentioned,  some photos would help tremendously.

[Gavroche]

Ok so no flat washer under the seat. This follow my first feelings about putting washer under the seat, it can be pretty dangerous.

 

To Moke Spider: The ball joint I got some trouble with was the last one to installed ... so we did not try to switch the parts. But we tried to put one of the older nut to see if the play was changing. But it was not, it may be the ball itself that is not to the right measures. I should try out with an older ball.

 

To FlyingScot: I followed the instructions in the technical manual to change the ball joint. And one step is to measure the play without putting either the spring or the lock washer in order to estimate the thickness of shims needed. And then mount the whole thing with the shims and the grease. I used the old plate that fit correctly the grease nipple.

 

To Rorf: The seat is in the right place, in its place.

 

Can the hub be damaged where the seat goes ? I tested all the grease fittings and they all worked perfectly, a deformation would have chocked a hole that tiny isn't it ?

 

I tried to get the photo of the unmounted ball joint this evening.

Thank you guys for the answers !

[Spider]

The bore in the hub that the seat fits in to (if a top one) can get hammered in if it has been run for some time with loose / worn joints.

 

I've nearly always found that the hole in the lock tab for the grease nipple doesn't quite line up with that in the hub, they are usually around 1/2 to 3/4 of a hole out. While trial fitting them together, I leave the grease nipple out, then once I've sorted all the shims etc and doing the final assembly, I fit the locktab and grease nipple then assemble the rest of the joint.

 

I too have a distant recollect of a joint that was quite loose without shims and I think I determined in the end it was the pin that was out of spec. but I scrapped the entire joint as it just didn't give me confidence.

[mini13]

I would be using a genuine kit, and if it was still bad and the hub looked ok, and tere wasnt a load of play I would linish a LITTLE off the bittom of the cap.

 

do try swapping bits around if you havent already, especially the pins and caps

[nicklouse]

you have removed all the old shims and lock tab?

 

I do know someone who did not....

[Gavroche]

The bore in the hub that the seat fits in to (if a top one) can get hammered in if it has been run for some time with loose / worn joints.

If so, can it be repaired or is it a hub change ?

 

you have removed all the old shims and lock tab?

You mean when we unmounted the ball joints ? Yes of course we pull out everything.

 

How should look a worn ball joint ? Ours looked pretty clear when unmounting. All of them were loose, but they looked pretty decent. Should the pin be scratch or anything ?

[Gavroche]

Hello all,

I finally had a bit of time to take a picture. It looks like the surface was sanded due to rotation of the old seat, no?

Thx you for the help!

[Spider]

Thanks for the link to you pic of your hub.

 

Sorry to say, to me, that looks pretty worn.

 

The only safe option from here that I can suggest is a new hub.