68 replies to this topic

[Cooperman]

No, that's not how democracy works. We had a national referendum and the gov't said that the result would be honoured.

The result was clear, we leave the EU. No ifs or buts, we leave.

That's how democracy works.

There is now no reason for a further referendum - we voted to leave.

The politicians charged with doing this must get the best deal they can from both the EU and from other non-EU countries.

I voted to join the Common Market back in 1975 as it seemed a sensible idea for a free trade area. I never voted to become a part of the 'United States of Europe', an undemocratic organisation run in the main my unelected officials with an unbelievable level of 'fiddling' and misuse of public funds.

[Pistonbroke66]

That’s it in a nutshell really cooperman. I’m continually bemused at the clamouring for a second referendum, hence my football analogy. Simply fact was there was a free democratic vote, one side won , one side lost. Suck it up and get on with it as difficult as that maybe for some.......

[CityEPete]

I'm totally against brexit but I'm not after another vote.

It's a lose lose situation for remainers now, if leaving works out well we won't hear the end of it and if it doesn't we'll be told it was due to remainers not getting behind the new independent UK.

[Mito]

We had a referendum that was advisory only and I never trust a politician to do what they promise. A manifesto can be essentially torn up the day after an election or whenever they become too inconvenient for them.

I'm not fussed either way but if there's enough call for a second vote, then that is what should happen. Free speech and democracy go hand in hand and a vote doesn't mean that people have to stop campaigning for what they believe in. I wonder how historical events would have turned out if that was the case!

[Cooperman]

We had a seriously unpopular and incompetent labour government with a very small majority some years ago. However, much as they were disliked they had been democratically elected and no-one suggested a general election to remove them. In the end we had an election and they were chucked out, but it was done democratically.
There really is no justification for any further referendum on Brexit. It has been decided democratically.
Now we just need to get out and the sooner the better.

[CityEPete]

We had a seriously unpopular and incompetent labour government with a very small majority some years ago. However, much as they were disliked they had been democratically elected and no-one suggested a general election to remove them. In the end we had an election and they were chucked out, but it was done democratically.
There really is no justification for any further referendum on Brexit. It has been decided democratically.
Now we just need to get out and the sooner the better.

But that was not a permanent situation, we knew we could get rid of them within a few years.

[Cooperman]

That is true of course, but nevertheless, that Labour Gov't certainly screwed up the economy before they were voted out. Basic income tax rates were 33% and the level of corporation tax prevented and discouraged companies from investing in this country. The nationalised industries were making huge losses and were pumped up with public money. The point it that as th elected gov't there was no demand for an immediate election. people knew that there had to be either a 5-year period or the gov't dissolving parliament at their discretion. That is how our democracy works.

We don't hold a referendum and then, because some don't like the result, have another until the 'peasants' finally get the 'right' result. It just doesn't work that way.

What I don't understand is why some seem so afraid of leaving the EU and why they think that the UK will not be a better place when we control our own country and destiny once again.

My own feelings are that the EU never thought we would have the guts to leave and, therefore, they were unwilling to make any concessions when Cameron talked to them. In fact they simply ignored his requests for movement away from the doctrine of 'ever closer union' (i.e. The United States of Europe).

What seems to be happening is the Eurocrats are making veiled threats of 'punishment' for our daring to leave, but the more pragmatic businessmen in the largest EU countries (in terms of their economies) are realising that they need free trade with us as much as we would like to have that with them. In fact they stand to lose more than we do because we can negotiate our own trade deals with other non-EU countries whilst their countries can still only do it through the EU with all the red tape thus involved.

My son works for Mercedes in the UK and apparently they and other major German companies have indicated that a significant loss of UK business will result in redundancies in Germany. It is not a one-way loss of business. 

We need to call the bluff of the EU's unelected negotiators and threaten to walk away from negotiation until there is some willingness to act from the EU. Removal of freedom of movement is a line in the sand we must not cross. That is not to say no immigration from the EU, rather immigration only for those we need to support our economy. The UK has a strong industrial base and skill sets. Our banking and financial sector is the envy of the world. We will do fine outside the corrupt EU.

[Archived1]

A very biased movie.

They mention in the 21st century we can easily trade globally without trade deals just like JML do... and yet we need to leave our trade agreement with the eu to set up agreements elsewhere.
They say if we can produce something others want to buy then we’re going to sell... we don’t make anything because we’ve over relied on the banking sector and artificially inflated the pound and buoyed our economy through ever increasing house prices and unaffordable mortgages.

Brexit is driven by people who’ve had enough of burocracy and the ruling elite... so we’re asked to put the power of the UK into our governments hands (currently the tory elite) so we can have our freedoms eroded in the name of an easier Buck? Do we think new money will be shared amongst great unwashed?

We are currently the sixth richest economy in the world and yet the rich are getting richer and poor are getting poorer. We’re told by the ruling elite to work longer and harder while our prices are pushed up and the cost of living races away from us!

Yes, maybe we do need to get away from the EU elite... but maybe we need something closer to home that stops the ever increasing powers the elite have over us and reverse the erosion of our freedoms.

Recently there’s been talk of getting rid of the human rights act in the UK and replacing it with a bill of rights and responsibilities... something created and drafted by the very same type of people that have caused the global financial collapse yet come out much much richer at the other end of it.

Brexit or Not I don’t think the answer Britain needs is with any of the current ruling powers.. Britain needs to be British and have a strong democracy that’s actually a genuine democracy and not one where you just get to chose your dicatator

[CityEPete]

That is true of course, but nevertheless, that Labour Gov't certainly screwed up the economy before they were voted out. Basic income tax rates were 33% and the level of corporation tax prevented and discouraged companies from investing in this country. The nationalised industries were making huge losses and were pumped up with public money. The point it that as th elected gov't there was no demand for an immediate election. people knew that there had to be either a 5-year period or the gov't dissolving parliament at their discretion. That is how our democracy works.
We don't hold a referendum and then, because some don't like the result, have another until the 'peasants' finally get the 'right' result. It just doesn't work that way.
What I don't understand is why some seem so afraid of leaving the EU and why they think that the UK will not be a better place when we control our own country and destiny once again.
My own feelings are that the EU never thought we would have the guts to leave and, therefore, they were unwilling to make any concessions when Cameron talked to them. In fact they simply ignored his requests for movement away from the doctrine of 'ever closer union' (i.e. The United States of Europe).
What seems to be happening is the Eurocrats are making veiled threats of 'punishment' for our daring to leave, but the more pragmatic businessmen in the largest EU countries (in terms of their economies) are realising that they need free trade with us as much as we would like to have that with them. In fact they stand to lose more than we do because we can negotiate our own trade deals with other non-EU countries whilst their countries can still only do it through the EU with all the red tape thus involved.
My son works for Mercedes in the UK and apparently they and other major German companies have indicated that a significant loss of UK business will result in redundancies in Germany. It is not a one-way loss of business. 
We need to call the bluff of the EU's unelected negotiators and threaten to walk away from negotiation until there is some willingness to act from the EU. Removal of freedom of movement is a line in the sand we must not cross. That is not to say no immigration from the EU, rather immigration only for those we need to support our economy. The UK has a strong industrial base and skill sets. Our banking and financial sector is the envy of the world. We will do fine outside the corrupt EU.

I think the concern is that there's no reason why our current wealth can't just shift to Europe, if Poland become far wealthier then Mercedes can sell their products to them as we struggle to buy used Dacias! Ha.

[Icey]

The majority is in favour of leaving

 

Come on Cooperman, you're better than that. It was 2% of those who voted, just barely a majority. And do you think if it went the other way the Leave campaign would stop? Of course not, we'd have Farage, Boris and the other halfwits on every channel and in every paper shouting how it was a fix, 'project fear' was all lies and how they were robbed by the elite.

 

Back to the numbers though, of those eligible to vote it was only 36-37% who voted to leave.

 

You had a large number of people who voted 'I don't care' by not turning up to the ballot box. So to claim a majority of the 'nation' wants to leave is simply incorrect - it's roughly 1/3rd stay, 1/3 leave and 1/3 I don't care.

 

With such a large number of votes unused and with such a close margin between those who did vote, it isn't unreasonable to ask for a 2nd opinion (vote) when the full picture has become clear.

 

All this rose-tinted stuff about how we could be a great nation if only people got behind the idea is pigswill. The deal will be decided by those currently in power, no amount of audience participation will change it. So - no, I won't start cheering for the 'other side' because there's nothing to cheer for yet. When we have a clue as to what it'll look like, if it's good you'll have me jumping up and shouting with joy but equally if it's a rotten egg there will be a massive 'I told you so' printed in large text. None of us underlings no matter what age or political persuasion can change a thing at the moment.

[greenwheels]

I do wish the remainers would wake up and read the papers. Do we want to be associated with the likes of Spain which has demonstrated it's view of democracy recently over the Catalan debacle and will probably end up in splitting, Italy with it's teetering economy which some reports say could topple the EU economy, Greece with it's troubled economy that had to be bailed out. Then there are all the eastern European countries that would be quite happy to lean on the rest of European countries and flood this overcrowded country with cheap labour putting our own children out of work and stifling initiative to develop our own skills and technologies

Then there all those unelected bureaucrats who dabble in things like trying to stop us building kit cars with older engines whose pollution will be negligible to the environment due to the few numbers involved and will stifle creative thinking amongst those amongst us who want to build a kit but don't have the knowledge or money to build a fancy modern style engine. Haven't they more important things to attend to!!

And then there is France. Didn't Macron say recently that if there was a 'Frexit' vote there is a good chance it would end in Frexit.

Enough is enough - in the words of John Wayne 'lets get the hell outa here'. 

The people have spoken in the way that has worked very well for this country in the past. Time to wake up and smell the roses, letting someone else rule us is just plain laziness.

[Mito]

Far too much is blamed on the EU and people seem to forget that our elected representatives signed each and every treaty and were involved in the decisions which led to those treaties being drawn up. We also get to vote for EU MP's aka mep's but we like to vote for ukip who don't turn up a lot of the time. On that basis, the EU is democratic, but it does have further to go.

This country is where it is because it is held back by the short sightedness of our successive governments. All of which are to blame for the current situation. The EU has a part to play but it is lack of investment by government that is leading us to ruin.

I do hope that we do well if/when we leave the EU but my fear is that leaving the EU does nothing to resolve our systemic problems and we're on the road to ruin. The only advantage that being out of the EU has is that our government will have no one else to blame for our problems, though no doubt they will complain that the EU and other nations are to blame because they are being mean to us. Unbeknownst to them the world is a cruel and uncaring place and everyone, just as we will be, will be serving their own interests.

Edited by Mito, 21 February 2018 - 06:48 PM.

[mab01uk]

Far too much is blamed on the EU and people seem to forget that our elected representatives signed each and every treaty and were involved in the decisions which led to those treaties being drawn up. We also get to vote for EU MP's aka mep's but we like to vote for ukip who don't turn up a lot of the time. On that basis, the EU is democratic, but it does have further to go.

This country is where it is because it is held back by the short sightedness of our successive governments. All of which are to blame for the current situation. The EU has a part to play but it is lack of investment by government that is leading us to ruin.

I do hope that we do well if/when we leave the EU but my fear is that leaving the EU does nothing to resolve our systemic problems and we're on the road to ruin. The only advantage that being out of the EU has is that our government will have no one else to blame for our problems, though no doubt they will complain that the EU and other nations are to blame because they are being mean to us. Unbeknownst to them the world is a cruel and uncaring place and everyone, just as we will be, will be serving their own interests.

 

I think perhaps it is you that is held back by short sightedness, if you think this country has all the problems (listening too much to the BBC?)........Compared to the majority of European countries (as stated above in Greenwheels post) our current situation as the worlds 6th largest economy and with our lowest unemployment figures for years? This is of course a major part of the reason why people from mainland Europe (and many other parts of the world) are queuing up to get here by legal or illegal means. I live and work with many people from other European countries who admire our decision to leave the EU and wish their 'political elite' would allow them to vote on whether they want their countries to be further merged into the European Superstate project......they do not understand why some British people listen to the so called experts who talk down Britain at every opportunity and make statements like we are on the road to ruin based on flawed computer generated figures which have rarely been right in the past.

Remember the emergency budget that we were told would be needed the day after the Brexit vote?

Remember the same 'experts' with their dire predictions of what would happen if we did not join the Euro currency and dump the Pound a few years back?.....(probably the most important thing Gordon Brown did for the UK as Chancellor despite pressure from Blair and many others to join).

 

The big names backing Remain want you to forget how so many of them pushed for Britain to join the euro

"In 2001, the Financial Times predicted that Greece in particular was set to draw huge benefits from Eurozone membership......"

http://www.independe...o-a7059326.html

 

The most important thing he will ever have done in his public life.

The most important thing he will ever have done in his public life.

Edited by mab01uk, 21 February 2018 - 07:59 PM.

[Icey]

Off on a tangent here but hey, it's all good fun, right!

(listening too much to the BBC?)

This is always an interesting point - in your opinion, who is a trustworthy news source? Considering the BBC gets accused of bias by both left and right, for and against...

The big names backing Remain want you to forget how so many of them pushed for Britain to join the euro

And again, other than the rose-tinted 'British pound or death' blah blah, how do you think this would have affected the country? Considering GBP and EUR aren't a million miles off parity (and came damn close when it tanked after the vote).

[Mito]

We may have fairly high levels of employment but wages and productivity at not rising. This is largely due to poor levels of investment. Hardly a golden age!

Germany seems to have done quite well out of the euro. Who's to say how well Britain would have faired. History tells us what did happen but not what could have happened, that can only be modelled and they aren't always correct. However, that doesn't stop them from being a useful tool for basing ones decisions.

People favouring brexit love telling the other side to stop talking Britain down in one breath and talk it down themselves in the next. You can't have it both ways.

A bit of an assumption there that I only get my news from the BBC. It's kind of like me assuming that you only read the daily wail or watch sky news! Of course no one would be daft enough to only watch or read left or right wing propaganda would they?!

Edited by Mito, 21 February 2018 - 09:46 PM.