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Side Draughting An Spi Throttle Body


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#1 Wazzah

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 11:26 PM

I'm thinking about mounting a standard SPI Throttle Body on a minisport HIF44 manifold.

This will mean mounting the TB sideways making it into a side draught unit.

Throttle cable poses no problems, a vacuum tree will handle brake booster and MAP sensor.

Relocating the fuel trap mounting away from the exhaust and some heat shielding would help.

The temp sender can relocate over to the thermostat housing and the minisport manifold has water passages.

I don't need the manifold heater/ pressure compensator in my opinion so I will simply delete this.

Gravity shouldn't effect the pressurised fuel reservoir around the injector nor the pressurised squirt from the injector.

It may cause some puddling of fuel at low speed.

Has this been tried?

Can anyone see any problems in my logic?

I believe it will improve flow considerably and offer some benefit.

I have the next  size up injector to match the expected extra flow.

Understanding the abilities and limitations of the MEMS am I likely to see a few more ponies?

Someone talk me out of it please!! 



#2 Bobbins

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:18 AM

Assuming you're going to use a pancake (K&N?) filter now mounted on the "back" of the TB is your intention to re-make all the vacuum connections as in the standard SPi install?

Watching with interest :)

Stu.

#3 genpop

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 04:13 PM

Very interesting idea, but then I would take the complete system of a rover 200 and build a mpi system.The throtle body of this system is much smaller and you have a lot of room .And remember you need an other clutch system because of the crankshaft sensor or an additional sprocket disk mounted on the crankshaft.

Good luck and let us know about the improvement.



#4 Wazzah

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 09:54 PM

Assuming you're going to use a pancake (K&N?) filter now mounted on the "back" of the TB is your intention to re-make all the vacuum connections as in the standard SPi install?

Watching with interest :)

Stu.

 

Yeah Stu,

I will run all standard SPI vacuum connections except for the warm air flap on the air cleaner.

K& N Filter will work.

From memory I think we have very similar JDM SPI's.

I have had the SC Throttle Body and Delta 400 ECU on my car for 6 months and have given up on it.

Reinstalled all the original SPI gear now.

The car is much more driveable with the SPI gear back on.

I drive my car everyday and race it on the weekends.

The SC equipment got me an extra 6mph on the straights.

It did accelerate harder as well but didnt have the mid range torque of the SPI.

I couldn't get the fueling right and there was a fine line between running too rich and lean backfiring.

It hated 3200 rpm for some reason which is about 55mph where I spend most of my time while driving to work.

I race in an improved production formula and I have to run the 5 port cast iron head and limited to 1330cc.

Our championship has circuit,  hill climb, motorkhana and autocross events and I want my car to be competitive across all 4 events.

Most of my competitors run in only 2 events either tar or dirt.

I run a Quaife, 4 pot cooper front brakes, drums on the back, lightweight hubs front and rear, lightweight trailing arms and adjustable suspension.

I had KAD rear discs but chucked them away due to an ineffective handbrake.

You need a handbrake for motorkhana dirt.

Apart from a few extra horsepower all I need is to lose 3 stone.



#5 Bobbins

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 05:39 AM

Yes you recall correctly, mine's a JDM as well and my understanding is that the ecu has "some" control of the air con meaning it really needs to stay. Likewise any change that lose the vacuum connections appear to be quite detrimental to the running.

#6 tmsmini

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 04:59 PM

I am curious about the decision to abandon the SC setup. After conversion the SC configuration is basically the same, MPi or SPi.

 

I am in the states so assistance from SC is a bit complicated, but they did connect to the ecu and make some adjustments at one point.

Were you able to get any assistance from them? Some people have suggested using the SC(actually AT Power) throttle body with an alternative ECU like Megasquirt/Microsquirt.

 

EDIT: I am still using the Typhoon II ECU. I was hoping the Delta series might have some better options for configuration.


Edited by tmsmini, 23 October 2019 - 05:00 PM.


#7 Wazzah

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 01:14 AM

I am curious about the decision to abandon the SC setup. After conversion the SC configuration is basically the same, MPi or SPi.

 

I am in the states so assistance from SC is a bit complicated, but they did connect to the ecu and make some adjustments at one point.

Were you able to get any assistance from them? Some people have suggested using the SC(actually AT Power) throttle body with an alternative ECU like Megasquirt/Microsquirt.

 

EDIT: I am still using the Typhoon II ECU. I was hoping the Delta series might have some better options for configuration.

 

Hi Tmsmini,

I have a SC 45mm throttle body and SC delta 400 ECU.

I also fitted the SC Super Sport head, 1.5 rockers and LCB.

Let me say that SC were very helpful along the way.

I have since removed the entire kit and gone back to the SPI gear.

Kept the head on the car of course.

I drive my car to work most days and race in an improved production formula on weekends.

This includes circuit, hillclimb, motorkhana and autcross

My car is a 98 Japanese Domestic Market SPI with air conditioning.

The delta ecu accepted AC switched inputs but could not increase revs to cater for the extra load at idle.

I had to set idle at 1050 rpm as a compromise.

The delta ecu also accepted and switched temp signals from the auxiliary electric fan that comes with these cars.

My MEMS ECU is a twin plug with only one wire in the smaller plug in use.

This is one of the wasted spark coil feeds.

This single wire needs to be removed from the small MEMS plug and relocated into the large MEMS plug.

SC supply these instructions and there are heaps of Youtube videos on how to remove and replace individual wires in factory plugs.

This is a cool skill to have.

On fitting the car would not run at all well.

It is definitely not plug and play.

SC sent me a number of calibration downloads and lots of suggestions.

I live in Australia so you appreciate the patience shown by them and me using emails and the huge time difference.

Time on a rolling road was fruitless.

I went home after that session and started playing with the various settings and discovered that the engines running improved considerably using the Rover K Series 36-4 timing source.

Even though mine is an SPI it has an MPI block and a 36-4 MPI flywheel.

Interestingly it would not run on the Rover MPI 36-4 setting or the SPI 36-2 setting. 

I contacted SC with this news and they sent me an updated calibration and a wiring change to their supplied ECU harness.

They did say that it was an anomaly in the Delta 400 and mine was the first SPI fitted with the Delta 400 since they phased out the Delta Typhoon 

The car ran ok after these changes but was extremely rich and returned 22 mpg!

I gained 8 mph in top speed and it did accelerate nicely.

Rolling road showed 68hp at the wheels which I reckon is about 80 hp at the flywheel

At 55 mph around 3200 rpm up a gentle incline it would backfire consistently like a lean backfire.

Another rolling road session got rid of this backfire at 3200 only to be replaced with the same backfire at 2500!!

Such a pain in the arse.

3200 rpm is used a lot in my daily commute to work and 2500 rpm is basically the range you find yourself after a gear shift.

The backfire would disappear if you held the throttle flat out.

This was not an enjoyable car to drive.

I suspected an air leak and went over my entire intake and exhaust system several times replacing all gaskets at least twice.

Out on our motorway I would have friends and family drive me for hours and hours with a lap top in the passenger seat whilst I adjusted fuelling and timing at every throttle opening at all rev ranges in all gears.

I have saved hundreds of my own calibrations each with their own advantages and promises.

Combining them all I came up with 4 cals that I could live with and I would change them depending on what way I would drive to work and whether I was racing or not.

I upgraded the kit with a wideband O2 sensor and went through the whole process again.

No matter what I did it would backfire under light load somewhere in the rev range and always had awful fuel consumption.

Destroyed a cat with the richness.

Any attempt to lean of the fuelling would result in an instant backfire.

The wideband readings were either Lambda 0.2 or 2.

It was impossible to get it anywhere near the 0.8-1.0 range.

Inspection of the spark plugs had very rich 2 & 3 cylinders and better 1 & 4.

Closed loop running showed wild full scale fuel corrections (22.5%) in the positive and negative at idle!

I could not get it to idle at lambda 1 at any stage.

What do I think is happening?

Perhaps the 45mm TB is just too large for the application.

The injection timing is not adjustable and perhaps the K series injection intervals do not suit an A series.

Perhaps the Siamese ports have an affect this over and under fuelling.

Perhaps my engine just doesn't suck hard enough to take advantage of the extra fuel and air.

So, refitting the SPI gear was a pain but the car ran perfectly straight away and was back to 44mpg.

I havent checked top speed yet but it still goes well with just the SC Head.

Mid range torque may be slightly better with SPI gear.

A lot more fun and flexibility with SPI gear.

I think I will persevere with the SC kit and will build up a 1330 high comp engine (if I can find an MPI block in Australia) with a 36-1 timing wheel.

I am of the firm opinion that the Rover MEMS is simply awesome.

I have some ideas on future improvements.

Losing 3 stone myself will help power to weight ratios.

Going deeper under brakes and shaving the door handles is always an option.

Tread carefully

 



#8 Wazzah

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 01:35 AM

Yes you recall correctly, mine's a JDM as well and my understanding is that the ecu has "some" control of the air con meaning it really needs to stay. Likewise any change that lose the vacuum connections appear to be quite detrimental to the running.

The Delta 400 controls the aircon and the auxiliary electric radiator fan.

You can set the fan to come on at any temperature you want but the aircon function does not up the revs at idle when the aircon is on.

All vacuum connections get deleted using the SC set up.

The engine breathers and the charcoal cannister lines get re routed to a multiport adaptor on the supplied minisport manifold.

Vacuum lines on standard SPI's do give trouble and the poor running is due to the effect on the MAP sensor which is internal to the Rover MEMS ECU.

The Delta 400 does not have a MAP Sensor and the whole set up relies on throttle position %, engine revs and injector pulse width.

I believe a MAP sensor is necessary to control the varying loads in normal driving.

The Rover MEMS does this brilliantly.



#9 tmsmini

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 02:39 AM

Thank you for the update. i did find it in the other thread. I too feel the MEMS does a good job at what it is intended for. Mine is an MPi but after the  SC conversion the engines are very similar in function.


Edited by tmsmini, 25 October 2019 - 01:56 PM.


#10 Wazzah

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 08:59 PM

So the adaptor is finished and the SPI Throttle Body fits nicely.

Nothing seems to foul.

The throttle quadrant sits nicely in a spot that the standard cable can reach and operate.

I am making a cable bracket that will be shaped to sit over the low speed breather port.

It will bolt onto the 2 top TB mounting studs and I'll screw the fuel trap bracket to this cable bracket.

The high speed breather port and the purge port sit nicely at the top making connections very easy.

Not like a Mini at all.

I will do a test fit this weekend.

The throttle mechanism with it's push rod to the stepper motor will come close to the underside of the bonnet and is possibly the show stopper at the moment.

I think the fuel pipes can stay where they are with a bit of heat shielding or wrapping.

A HIF44 spacer block with a vacuum port will fit between my manifold and the adaptor and I will run the MAP sensor/ fuel block vacuum line out of this port.

I'm not going to bother with the vacuum line to the heat flap on the air cleaner.

Which brings me to my last problem being the air cleaner.

From my measurements I reckon the original air cleaner will fit.

The problem will be accessing the 3 air cleaner bolts that hold it to the TB.

The way around this is to mount everything on the manifold and then bolt it all to the head.

Makes future air filter changes a pain in the arse.

I'm running an SC Super Sport head with 36mm inlets and 31mm exhausts and they supplied the minisport manifold which is port matched, enlarged internally and gas flowed.

My car responded well to this head with the standard SPI gear.

As I have taken a 90 degree bend out of each inlet tract I am confident I will get significantly better inlet flows.

Hopefully this will improve performance

.Attached File  SPI Side Draught 1.jpg   56.85K   7 downloadsAttached File  SPI Side Draught 2.jpg   49.28K   5 downloads



#11 Wazzah

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Posted 30 July 2020 - 03:13 AM

Attached File  IMG_2242 (2).JPG   76.59K   2 downloads

 

So the side draught conversion is fitted and running well.

 

I'm running the standard SPI throttle body and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

 

The car is certainly more lively, revs cleanly and accepts more fuel pressure than the down draught setup without running rich.

 

I have a 45mm SPI throttle body which I will fit with some blending of inlet, spacer to match the larger diameter.

 

It idles beautifully.

 

Forgive the rats nest of hoses as this was just a proof of concept.



#12 mini13

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Posted 30 July 2020 - 08:01 AM

Well reading through this, theres a few interesting points, its a bit mute as youve swaped ecu now, but I'll point them out anyway in case its of use to others.

 

 

you have an MPI 36-4 flywheel, but you don't mention having a cam sensor. if this wasnt present then it would cause a whole heap of issues as the ecu wouldnt know when to inject.  setting it to the rover K setting as you did would likly make it ignore the cam sensor, but would likly screw the injection times as  it would be a 4 injector engine?  I suspect if you had fitted an SPI flywheel you could have got a better result.

 

regarding the lambda it sound very much like a WB / narrow band scale incompatibility issue, what wB were you using?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am curious about the decision to abandon the SC setup. After conversion the SC configuration is basically the same, MPi or SPi.

 

I am in the states so assistance from SC is a bit complicated, but they did connect to the ecu and make some adjustments at one point.

Were you able to get any assistance from them? Some people have suggested using the SC(actually AT Power) throttle body with an alternative ECU like Megasquirt/Microsquirt.

 

EDIT: I am still using the Typhoon II ECU. I was hoping the Delta series might have some better options for configuration.

 

Hi Tmsmini,

I have a SC 45mm throttle body and SC delta 400 ECU.

I also fitted the SC Super Sport head, 1.5 rockers and LCB.

Let me say that SC were very helpful along the way.

I have since removed the entire kit and gone back to the SPI gear.

Kept the head on the car of course.

I drive my car to work most days and race in an improved production formula on weekends.

This includes circuit, hillclimb, motorkhana and autcross

My car is a 98 Japanese Domestic Market SPI with air conditioning.

The delta ecu accepted AC switched inputs but could not increase revs to cater for the extra load at idle.

I had to set idle at 1050 rpm as a compromise.

The delta ecu also accepted and switched temp signals from the auxiliary electric fan that comes with these cars.

My MEMS ECU is a twin plug with only one wire in the smaller plug in use.

This is one of the wasted spark coil feeds.

This single wire needs to be removed from the small MEMS plug and relocated into the large MEMS plug.

SC supply these instructions and there are heaps of Youtube videos on how to remove and replace individual wires in factory plugs.

This is a cool skill to have.

On fitting the car would not run at all well.

It is definitely not plug and play.

SC sent me a number of calibration downloads and lots of suggestions.

I live in Australia so you appreciate the patience shown by them and me using emails and the huge time difference.

Time on a rolling road was fruitless.

I went home after that session and started playing with the various settings and discovered that the engines running improved considerably using the Rover K Series 36-4 timing source.

Even though mine is an SPI it has an MPI block and a 36-4 MPI flywheel.

Interestingly it would not run on the Rover MPI 36-4 setting or the SPI 36-2 setting. 

I contacted SC with this news and they sent me an updated calibration and a wiring change to their supplied ECU harness.

They did say that it was an anomaly in the Delta 400 and mine was the first SPI fitted with the Delta 400 since they phased out the Delta Typhoon 

The car ran ok after these changes but was extremely rich and returned 22 mpg!

I gained 8 mph in top speed and it did accelerate nicely.

Rolling road showed 68hp at the wheels which I reckon is about 80 hp at the flywheel

At 55 mph around 3200 rpm up a gentle incline it would backfire consistently like a lean backfire.

Another rolling road session got rid of this backfire at 3200 only to be replaced with the same backfire at 2500!!

Such a pain in the arse.

3200 rpm is used a lot in my daily commute to work and 2500 rpm is basically the range you find yourself after a gear shift.

The backfire would disappear if you held the throttle flat out.

This was not an enjoyable car to drive.

I suspected an air leak and went over my entire intake and exhaust system several times replacing all gaskets at least twice.

Out on our motorway I would have friends and family drive me for hours and hours with a lap top in the passenger seat whilst I adjusted fuelling and timing at every throttle opening at all rev ranges in all gears.

I have saved hundreds of my own calibrations each with their own advantages and promises.

Combining them all I came up with 4 cals that I could live with and I would change them depending on what way I would drive to work and whether I was racing or not.

I upgraded the kit with a wideband O2 sensor and went through the whole process again.

No matter what I did it would backfire under light load somewhere in the rev range and always had awful fuel consumption.

Destroyed a cat with the richness.

Any attempt to lean of the fuelling would result in an instant backfire.

The wideband readings were either Lambda 0.2 or 2.

It was impossible to get it anywhere near the 0.8-1.0 range.

Inspection of the spark plugs had very rich 2 & 3 cylinders and better 1 & 4.

Closed loop running showed wild full scale fuel corrections (22.5%) in the positive and negative at idle!

I could not get it to idle at lambda 1 at any stage.

What do I think is happening?

Perhaps the 45mm TB is just too large for the application.

The injection timing is not adjustable and perhaps the K series injection intervals do not suit an A series.

Perhaps the Siamese ports have an affect this over and under fuelling.

Perhaps my engine just doesn't suck hard enough to take advantage of the extra fuel and air.

So, refitting the SPI gear was a pain but the car ran perfectly straight away and was back to 44mpg.

I havent checked top speed yet but it still goes well with just the SC Head.

Mid range torque may be slightly better with SPI gear.

A lot more fun and flexibility with SPI gear.

I think I will persevere with the SC kit and will build up a 1330 high comp engine (if I can find an MPI block in Australia) with a 36-1 timing wheel.

I am of the firm opinion that the Rover MEMS is simply awesome.

I have some ideas on future improvements.

Losing 3 stone myself will help power to weight ratios.

Going deeper under brakes and shaving the door handles is always an option.

Tread carefully

 

 

 



#13 Wazzah

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Posted 30 July 2020 - 10:07 PM

Hi Mini 13,

I'm running the standard ECU as the SC ECU is a complete failure.

My 1999 model SPI has a factory fitted 36-4 Flywheel but does not have a cam sensor.

There is a factory fitted plastic cover over the cam sensor hole in the back of the block.

The cam has the correct lump that aligns with the sensor hole.

My MEMS ECU is a factory fitted MNE101351.

You will find that only MPI's need the cam sensor as they need the extra reference for a semi sequential firing of the injectors in a bid to overcome port robbing.

The SPI's wet manifold, single injector set up does not need this semi sequential firing.

Don't ask me how MNE101351's cope with the unique 36-4 staggered firing pattern in the standard set up because I don't know.

I think you will find that it wont run at all using a standard SPI flywheel. 

This MPI block with SPI setup is common to all post 97 air conditioned minis with manual transmission most of which were sold into Japan.

This includes a wasted spark ignition timing set up and no distributor.

I was running the Bosch 4.9 Wideband with the SC ECU.

This is able to be calibrated in SX Tune and was.

I'm back to using the Bosch 4.2 Narrowband with the factory MEMS.

I'm in the middle of an engine rebuild at the moment and will be refitting the Wideband sensor with the standard ECU.

The wideband sensor is for a gauge which has an analogue output which MEMS can handle.

My side draughting clearly allows better air flow which means that providing the engine can suck more air it will accept more fuel.

Judicious use of my adjustable fuel pressure regulator with reference to lambda readings will keep MEMS in a happy AFR range.



#14 Midas Mk1

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Posted 30 July 2020 - 10:24 PM

If the spi std ecu gets better results than the sc ecu then its user error. The base maps are awful and you really need a full mapping session to exploit it, the sc setup seems a much better choice than an old spi unit on its side. 

 

Its not comparing apples for apples. 


Edited by Midas Mk1, 30 July 2020 - 10:26 PM.


#15 IronmanG

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Posted 31 July 2020 - 06:52 AM

Following with interest. I have heard many different opinions of the SC delta- failure to hold maps in the memory for example! I will be using 1 shortly so I hope they arent totally crap




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