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Led Bulbs - Fire Hazard?


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#16 gazza82

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 05:10 PM

I was reading this the other day

https://www.autobulb...egal-in-the-uk/


This. I refuse to sell these kits for road going cars. Modern cars are already bad enough. Ultra bright lights in housings that werent designed for them are even more of a nuisance.

Fitting LED bulbs to lamp units designed for filament bulbs is going to be an MOt fail later this year. Replacing the entire headlamp for an led conversion will be the only option allowed.

#17 gazza82

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 05:20 PM

Does anyone have any experience of 5w/21w etc etc bulb replacements with any good recommendations.  It is difficult to work out which bulbs are quality and which are crap.


I've not tried them yet, but I have read a few posts with good commments about these

https://www.classicc...ail-light-bulbs

A lot of LED bulbs on sale are also not road legal so do your homework.

#18 Tornado99

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 06:00 PM

I've just done all exterior lighting to LED (except license plate light).

Got these from https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/

They provided a list of all the needed types for my '88 Mini:

"Headlight H4 Warm White and P45T adapter - headlights back in stock in about 2 weeksIndicators 382 Amber - back in stock 21 DecemberSide repeaters 501AStop Tail 380 Red standard or extra brightReverse - cool white standard or extra brightSide/Pilot Light 989 - various coloursFlasher Relay - should be a 2 pin unit but please checkHazard Relay - should be a 2 pin unit but please checkH3 we build cool white 6000k or 3000k warm white, we do not have a yellow option."

I didn't get their headlights as I had a local supplier with a nice type (Steveston Motor Co). Also I needed to source two, 2-prong flasher relays, for LED lights (thermal clasical types will not work with lighter wattage LED) from Amazon. One for indicator one for hazard.

All working nicely.
For daylight running lamps, you can fit a simple accessory lighting relay to the on with ign wiring that can then power the standard light switch. Only when ign is on. Then just leave that switch where you like (side lights of :headlight on). No worries of a flat battery.

#19 MiniTim71

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 04:42 PM

Thanks guys, I definitely want to stay the right side of UK law and don't want to draw attention by modding the headlights at this point.  But with modern cars lit up like Christmas trees I feel a fresher and slightly brighter look is needed to be seen.  After all our puny single low level front indicator is almost invisible in modern traffic.

 

Tornado99, good idea re the running-light wiring.  I could take a feed from the Green at the back of the Heated Rear Screen switch (Green is Ignition position 2) to power a relay and have that connect the Brown (normally live all the time) to the Light switch.  That way the light switch works as normal but I can leave it in side light position for day running.  The only down side is I cant leave the car with the side lights on.  But who would do that now?  #flatbattery

It also saves you from leaving the lights on at all, which in modern cars is largely automatic now.



#20 xrocketengineer

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Posted 19 March 2021 - 01:13 AM

Well, the LED replacements for incandescent bulbs are probably still not legal anywhere. However, these guys in the videos do a lot of testing and they have a very good explanation why some LED (and HID) bulbs do not produce good lighting but a lot of glare for the oncoming driver instead. The key is that the LED's have to be located in the reflector in exactly the same location as the bulb filament would be and must be as close as possible to the size of the original filament in order to provide usable lighting with no additional glare to the oncoming drivers. In addition, the LED's must be oriented to shine to the sides of the reflector and not to the top and bottom of the reflector. The technology continues to progress shrinking the LED size and someday, it can become a legal replacement for the incandescent filament. 

 

 

 



#21 Quinlan minor

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Posted 19 March 2021 - 09:34 PM

Fresh info re: LED replacements from our terribly competent law-makers:

 

"MOT test changes: Classic car owners will face new LED headlight rules from Monday !

Classic car owners have now been advised not all autos will routinely fail their test if they’ve LED bulbs put in on their vehicles regardless of earlier concern. Updates to the MOT inspection handbook earlier this month had mentioned current halogen headlamp models on traditional vehicles shouldn’t be transformed for use with high-intensity discharge (HID) or light-emitting diode (LED) bulbs.

However, the DVSA mentioned they had been “changing these rules” to make sure not all vehicles had been affected.

In a new MOT particular discover report, the DVSA mentioned: “From 22 March 2021, we’re changing these rules so that not all motorcycles and vehicles will fail the MOT test if their halogen headlamp units have been converted to be used with HID or LED bulbs.”

The replace means vehicles constructed and used earlier than 1 April 1986 wouldn’t immediately fail for having the bulbs put in.

However, the DVSA confirmed autos constructed after this date would nonetheless fail if they’ve the half put in.


“The cars and passenger vehicles inspection manual will be updated shortly.”

The MOT test will not be necessary on vehicles constructed pre-1981 as they’re eligible for a historic exemption.

Tests on older autos are sometimes examined to fulfill the car security requirements of the time to make sure historic fashions are nonetheless allowed on the street.

Before 1 April 1986 headlights weren’t topic to Type Approval, that means drivers may change their headlights to any specification so long as these had been street authorized.

After this date, headlights had been topic to Type Approval that means drivers wanted to put in the identical specs.

This meant if a bulb blew, street customers may exchange it however weren’t allowed to put in a very totally different new headlight unit with an LED bulb.

The new up to date rules have additionally relaxed restrictions for bike owners who can now match an LED bulb onto any bike no matter age so long as this was nonetheless street authorized.

The DVSA report added: “Class 1 and 2 motorcycles must not be failed for the defect ‘Light source and lamp not compatible’.

“Headlamps must comply with all other requirements of the test and headlamp aim.”

It is believed the new modifications have been launched to enhance general street security.

A DVSA spokesperson mentioned: “DfT has recently reviewed the lighting regulations in line with the UK road lighting regulations 1989 and the interpretation now concludes:

“If you swap your headlamp bulb from a halogen to a HID or LED bulb this is an MOT failure for cars and vans first used on or after 1 April 1986

“This conversion failure doesn’t apply to motorcycles

“Converted headlamps are not a failure item for cars or vans if a vehicle was first used before 1 April 1986

“Any lighting will still need to comply with the MOT’s standards on beam spread etc.”

 

Aren't you glad we have such clear-thinking and able government? Imagine how bad things would be in, say for instance a pandemic, if we didn't have such brilliant, forward looking leaders?


Edited by Quinlan minor, 20 March 2021 - 03:02 PM.


#22 xrocketengineer

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 12:46 AM

Here is another video showing why the LED orientation is so critical for good lighting and minimal glare to the oncoming drivers. I had bought a set of H11B's from a different outfit and they were fixed. When I installed  them in my projector headlights in my Hyundai Santa Fe, the LED's ended up at about a 45 degree angle. The lighting was whiter but much worse than with the halogen that were pretty bad to begin with. I eventually bought some adjustable H11 from these guys that were adjustable and with an adapter for the "B" electrical connection. Finally, I could see at night and the projector cut off to prevent glare works very well. You can see down the road how far the beam goes and ends on the road, not above. With the road ripples, you can see the variation of the beam range.            

 


Edited by xrocketengineer, 20 March 2021 - 12:47 AM.


#23 beardylondon

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 05:15 PM

Very interesting videos, my question is, do any of the ones available for classic mini tick the right boxes, and match beam pattern and hot spot etc, as demo'd in the video?



#24 PoolGuy

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 05:51 PM

Very interesting videos, my question is, do any of the ones available for classic mini tick the right boxes, and match beam pattern and hot spot etc, as demo'd in the video?

These are very good ime.
https://www.classicc...onversion-9-32v



#25 beardylondon

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 06:55 PM

Thanks, yes they look like they tick the boxes highlighted in that video, still potentially illegal I guess

#26 Tornado99

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 06:59 PM

That posting of the MOT changes is one of the worst uses of the English language I have seen in recent years. Almost as if it was from some kind of Google translation tool. 

 

Anyhow, I've no dog in this fight as we have no such MOT inspections in Canada.But as described, it does sound like if you are not replacing halogen bulbs with LED, you are OK. My '88 mini has non-halogen lamps (p56 incandescent "glow-worm" bulbs). I've just fitted adaptor rings from Classic Car LED's that allow the reflector shells to accept standard H4 bulbs, which I've then fitted with some nice LED H4 format sources. So I have not replaced halogen with LED. 

 

As for these videos on LED issues, they seem to focus on the the modern multi-faceted type reflector lamps, which rely on very precise filament position to achieve proper beam pattern. Old motorcycle and cars (like my mini Lucas lamps) typically have just a smooth parabolic reflector with no multi-faceting. Beam pattern is generally "controlled" via the glass lens, albeit to a much lower extent. I'd like to see a comparison of standard bulb vs LED in these old lamps to understand if same issues arise. 


Edited by Tornado99, 20 March 2021 - 07:01 PM.


#27 Tornado99

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 07:00 PM

Removed duplicate post.


Edited by Tornado99, 20 March 2021 - 07:01 PM.


#28 PoolGuy

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 07:08 PM

Thanks, yes they look like they tick the boxes highlighted in that video, still potentially illegal I guess

Illegal in what way?



#29 PoolGuy

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 07:09 PM

That posting of the MOT changes is one of the worst uses of the English language I have seen in recent years. Almost as if it was from some kind of Google translation tool. 

 

Yes, it was rather strange.



#30 Mini Manannán

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Posted 18 May 2021 - 09:06 PM

I asked at the test centre over here last week ( not an MOT centre, we don't have MOTs here) the man there said:

"Retro fit LED headlight bulbs allowed, UK either has changed it's rules or is gonna sometime soon, we'll prob follow on in couple of years or so" he also said "don't fit cheapies, they're sheite & often have no pattern to them & you'll start p!ssing people off then when you're blinding them. Plus you'll have ******* headlights"

  Seems straight enough advice to me!






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