17 replies to this topic

[R32Egor]

Hi all,

 

Spent all day setting up my Front wheel alignment and when driving still doesn't feel right (actually a bit scary with a right hand turn).

 

I have one major question (as I have figured out the rest) Toe out setting - was recommended the standard 1.58mm toe out on the front wheels.

 

With calculations (I have 165/60R12 tyres) i have worked out this is 11 minutes total toe out so around 0.25 degrees total toe out. This relates to around 0.1 degrees toe out each side.

 

So when I use the track rite tool from Mini spares I should be seeing this each side YES or NO??

 

Are my calculations correct???? Please somebody help so I can have another go at setting this up tomorrow.

 

Thanks 😣

[absx2]

No, It`s 1.58mm total toe out.

I use a laser tracking tool but I have managed perfectly ok in days of old with two pieces of wood about four feet long with the the diameter of the rim marked on the far ends.

Then measure both parallels and the front should be 1/16" wider.

Four wheel alignment is good with a length of wood front and rear fitted exactly in the center of the car with string down both sides.

Then you can see how far out your rear toe is or if you have all the toe in ( rear ) on one side only.

This is how it was done back in the day before fancy lasers. 

[Cooperman]

No, It`s 1.58mm total toe out.

I use a laser tracking tool but I have managed perfectly ok in days of old with two pieces of wood about four feet long with the the diameter of the rim marked on the far ends.

Then measure both parallels and the front should be 1/16" wider.

Four wheel alignment is good with a length of wood front and rear fitted exactly in the center of the car with string down both sides.

Then you can see how far out your rear toe is or if you have all the toe in ( rear ) on one side only.

This is how it was done back in the day before fancy lasers. 

That is exactly the way I always do mine and have done for more years than I can remember. To improve accuracy I take the measurement along the straight edges at 2 x wheel diameter.

In fact I did the rears on my Grandson's car last weekend using that method and it now feels fine.

[weef]

Although I have never used a "trackrite" for wheel alignment just looking at the make up and use I do not think it would give you the accuracy you are wanting to achieve. There are too many variables that interfere affect the accuracy, the surface it sits on has to be really smooth and the gauge has to be aligned to the axis of the vehicle the latter being difficult to achieve. I think the best you could achieve is for the gauge to be in the "OK" region of the scale for toe out.

Obviously before you start there has to be defects with the vehicle suspension and steering components and the tyre pressures are correct and best if the tread patterns and depths are the same.

[weef]

The last part of the above should read "there should be NO defects in the suspension and steering".

Noticed this error after I posted same, sorry if it misled you.

[sonscar]

The problem with the drive on type device is that it sets the toe with no reference to the rear wheels.Did you centre the rack( not just put the steering wheel in the centre)Easily done but did you toe it in by mistake?Just random thoughts based on my errors,Steve..

[R32Egor]

ok I have set evrything up as best i can - using the camber caster measuring device from minispares (the one with string) -

 

The camber is set at -01.25 degs. Which is what i want

 

The caster -

 

Steps when i measure -

 

turn the RH wheel out first (20 degs)

Measures      - 2.0 degs

Turn rh wheel inwards (20 degs - total 40 degs)

Measures    - 4.0 degs 

 

So is this 2 degs negative caster    or    2 degs positive caster ??????????????????????????????????????

 

I am presuming that because the angle is decreasing (getting more negative) as i go from outside turn to inside turn then this is negative caster???????

[R32Egor]

My questions above is redundant as i have actually taken a look at the ball joints and I defiantly have positive caster.

 

but I have Some more questions -

 

My alignment setup as of now -

 

Front 

 

LH (drivers side here) - approx 0.15 Toe out                                                          RH  - approx 0.15 degs Toe out

                                                  -1 deg Camber                                                                           -1 deg camber

                                                  +2 deg caster                                                                              +2 deg caster

 

 

Back (non adjustable at the moment but I have the brackets)

 

LH                                              0.2 deg Toe in                                                      RH                0.2 deg toe out

                                                   0 deg camber                                                                            +2 deg camber

 

 

I have some questions -

 

1 - Keith Calver suggests +3 - 4 degs caster on the front and the standard is + 3 degs caster - should i be aiming for this and what would this do? At the moment the wheels are not really self aligning back to center.

 

2 - The car feels good in a lefthand turn and i get ok feedback through the steering weel but in a right hand turn the feedback is telling me the backend might let go at any second and just does not feel as grippy as a lefthand turn. Would this be caused by the RH rear wheel being toe out instead of in?? or does my setup above lead to this conclusion???

 

Thanks alignment gurus 

Edited by R32Egor, 31 July 2022 - 05:22 PM.

[Cooperman]

I always work on the following as being about ideal. I measure in mm toe-in/toe-out across the wheel diameter. This is easier to measure than degrees when using long straight edges.

 

Front;   3 to 4 degrees caster

             1 to 1.5 degrees neg camber

             2 mm to 4 mm toe-out

 

Rear:    0 to 0.5 degrees neg camber

             2 mm to 4 mm toe-in

 

There can be a bit of tolerance in all those dimensions, but the most critical thing is to have toe-in on the rear. If you have toe-out on the rear the car will handle badly and feel a bit unstable. For a road-car just get as near to those dimensions as possible. For a track car where a few 1/10ths of a second per lap is important, then go for super-accurate settings to suit your driving style.

[Earwax]

Hi   R32Egor

 

what other suspension bits are new or changed?

 

If you are going to add the rear camber brackets, do it now to get all the parameters as you intend to use. Also, if n doubt I would put some new tie rod bushes in and get them settled ( I have heard good reports about the minispares one soft/one hard bush kit) also get some good cup washers/flat washers to do the full job.

 

Increasing caster should help you self centre as you come out of a corner. It may take a tiny bit more to throw into the corner, but at 3 - 3.5 I have never felt it harder to keep tracking straight ( a possible con of increasing caster) . As Cooperman says, get close within tolerances but (me now) don't bust a boiler trying to get it perfect.  

 

On the rear , keeping slight toe in does help with stability ( doesn't feel your back is going to run away and keep running). The RH rear positive camber MAY NOT be helping - again MAY NOT - but it could be not quite right tyre pressures at rear and or the toe out .    I would try and get toe out - as that feeling of certainty about if and when the rear is about to let go makes for far more pleasant driving. Enjoy. If you name the brand of tyre , I am sure some people with more knowledge than me , will share set ups that work for those tyres.

[R32Egor]

Hi,

 

So every component in the front was changed -

 

Red dots, hilo's (all round), kYB gas ajusts (all round), adjustable bottom arms with the correct bushes, adjustable tie rods with correct bushings, full ball joint rebuilds, complete new sterring rack and tie rod  ends.

 

Rear - standard cones (not changed) - mini spares adjustable brackets (not yet fitted - looks like this is the next job).

 

All tyre pressures are at 1.7 bar - (haynes manual) with 165/60/12 and 12 x 5" wheels.

 

I will play with the caster a bit more and fit the rear brakets and adjust as above and see what happens

 

Thanks 

[R32Egor]

The problem with the drive on type device is that it sets the toe with no reference to the rear wheels.Did you centre the rack( not just put the steering wheel in the centre)Easily done but did you toe it in by mistake?Just random thoughts based on my errors,Steve..

I am still not sure regarding converting mm to degrees.

Most of the calculators give calculations for 12" wheels which I have BUT the drive over Gauge is using the whole wheel diameter which is around 19.5".

 

So should I be working out the degrees for a 19.5" diameter or a 12" diameter?

 

If we take 4mm and convert using 12" then we get - 45 minutes (o.75 degrees) but if use 19" we get - 28 minutes( 0.47 degrees).

 

Which one should I be using??? Does anybody know??

[GraemeC]

Usually a linear measurement (mm) is taken at the rim of the wheel - 12" in your case.

Obviously an angular measurement (degrees) is independent of wheel diameter.

[R32Egor]

Ah yes so all I really needed to know is that the Linear specifications given are dependant on wheel size and therefore the specifications are for a 12" wheel - Super - thanks

 

I was using wrong figures as I presumed the linear measurement was taken at the outside of the wheel including tyres for some reason.

Edited by R32Egor, 01 August 2022 - 02:15 PM.

[Lplus]

Looking through various Haynes manuals the toe out is always 1/16in (1.58) mm but the diameter at which this total difference between front and back of the wheels should be measured varies from "9.4in above the ground on a diameter of 14.5in" (1959 to 1978) via a diagram showing measurement on the widest part of the tyre plus a bit(1969 to 1985) to "the inside edges of the roadwheel rims" (1969 to 1996)

 

9.4in above ground is about the middle of the wheel, so 14.5 in diameter is the correct diameter

 

So that is anywhere beween 10in diameter and about 15in diameter.

 

Try using the average and just set it up.  1.58mm total difference at 12.5in gives a total angle of 0.285 degrees on my calculator.