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1999 Mini Mpi Injection Issues


Best Answer Jaforward , 30 April 2024 - 07:57 AM

Sorry it’s taken so one to reply to this one, I can confirm it’s fixed. During my extensive checking I came across many small issues that probably weren’t helping matters. To recap, car had persistent misfire on Cylinders 1&2.

Compressions on cylinders 1&2 were down, head removed and exhaust valves replaced.
Pressures now even across all cylinders @ 185psi. 
Engine running very rich. Injector for cylinder 1&2 was injecting far more fuel than 3&4 although the duty times from live data were the same.
ECU sent away for testing and returned with a clean bill of health.
Check for vacuum or exhaust leaks , manifolds removed again and checked for straightness , all ok.
O2 sensor removed to check sealing washer, very stubborn to remove and threads spalled when it did come out.
O2 sensor replaced with a aftermarket version.
O2 reading now very odd stuck at one end of the scale (can’t remember which), following other posts I realised that the internal wiring of the replacement was incorrect (no earth ?), genuine Bosch sensor fitted, readings now changing between lean and rich but only for a short time before sticking at rich. 
While looking for vacuum leaks I found that the O ring for the idle control stepper motor was missing.
Plugs and Coil pack replaced to rule out any internal damage.
Signal from Crank sensor checked on oscilloscope and didn’t look brilliant, some noise present. Removed sensor and found wires inside the sealed end of the sensor badly corroded. Replaced sensor, signals look cleaner but fault remained.
Check wiring to ECU, some additional earths had been added, one was connecting the earth screens of the crank, cam & O2 sensor directly to battery earth. On measuring the terminal on the ECU there was 1k resistance between that and earth, making me think that like the signal earth returns the screen should float slightly above battery earth. I removed that extra link but no improvement.
Occasionally and very randomly the car would run on 4 cylinders but still running rich, any attempt to load the engine by driving or revving hard would usually bring the persistent misfire back.

Injectors taken for testing / cleaning at ASNU Uk (local to me) I watched the procedure and was impressed by the knowledge and attention to detail, they were ok but cleaned anyway to remove any varnished fuel. 
I had tried to measure the injector currents with a digital clamp meter but found that the frequency was too quick for the meter.
I bought a pico clamp meter and measure the currents at the ECU on both of the drivers for each injector.
Injector 3&4 had typical traces for a peek and hold ? Injector.
Injector 1&2, one of the drivers looked good the others duty cycle was all wrong, very short current pulses and not constant.
As the ECU had previously been apart and repaired (not by me) I removed the lid with it connected and running, as soon as the lid was off the engine misfired very badly, checking the driver voltages at the output stages with the scope all looked good until I reached one of the drivers for 1&2 with the probe connected the engine would run very badly.
With the ECU on the bench and some reverse engineering circuit tracing, a resistor for the gate of one of the FET’s was open circuit (making an aerial that was very susceptible to interference with lid off ?) also the internal resistance of the FET driver IC outputs for each channel varied from 20M ohms on some (I believe correctly) to only 1k ohm on others. I can only assume that the misfiring from the bad valves had caused the ignition coil to spike and toasted part of the ECU ? (assuming the chip drives injectors and ignition coil outputs).
I bought a 2nd hand Mems 2J ECU from a MGF and swapped out the damaged components. Although the FET for the injector with poor current readings tested ok I replaced it anyway.
The engine now runs and drives on all cylinders with the O2 sensor readings correct.
0.7% CO at the tailpipe seems slightly high but the engine is running a 3 branch exhaust manifold with the O2 sensor only seeing the centre cylinders. 
Very pleased to see the back of this one.

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20 replies to this topic

#1 Jaforward

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 11:49 AM

Hi,

 

I have a 1999 Mini MPI with what appears to be a persistent misfire. Checking the ignition and injection system and a check of fault codes (there were none) didn’t show any obvious issues. A compression test showed cylinders 1&2 had lower compression than 3&4, removing and dismantling cylinder head showed poor sealing on the exhaust valves of 1&2. The valves were replaced and seats reground. Compression is now even on all cylinders but the misfire remains. After lots of further checking it appears that the injector for cylinder 1&2 is injecting way too much fuel compared to cylinders 3&4, swapping the injectors makes no difference, current draw readings show 1&2 is almost double the amps of 3&4. Fuel pressure is 2.5bar varying correctly with vacuum.

I had the ECU tested and it came back with no faults. Does anyone know if the Network 500 tester would pick up this fault ?

Any pointers on this gratefully received as short of finding another ECU to put on it I am stuck.

many thanks in advance 

John F



#2 Ethel

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 12:39 PM

I don't really know anything about MPIs, but it is a self adjusting system. Depending on how bad the valve issue was and how long it's been running since you fixed it, it might be still be compensating. Though I can't think how it'd be able to differentiate between cylinders (e.g. lambda) Surely only the cam sensor can do that.



#3 Jaforward

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 12:50 PM

If it works the same as the modern injection systems I am used to then clearing the fault codes (even if there aren’t any) should reset all the adaptions. This has been done without any change. 



#4 pete l

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 01:22 PM

What about new spark plugs, new HT leads and trying a different coil pack.



#5 nichmoss

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 01:22 PM

I suppose you've changed the plug leads as these are likely to have cracking insulation by now and can cause a misfire.

The Sykes Pickavant ACR4 will give you Injector pulse width for each injector (around 1.2 ms) and this should identify if the injectors are really an issue. Lots of other information from the ACR4 which might help but firstly, I'd check the non ECU things (leads, plugs, fuel age and so on). I have an ACR4 and am in Somerset if you are local.

Good luck, Chris

#6 Jaforward

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 03:02 PM

The leads and plugs have been changed and I had fitted a new coil in the early stages of my diagnosis. Fuel is fresh. ACR4 reports the pulse width the same for both injectors. If i measure the amount of fuel out of each injector while cranking injector 1 produces twice as much fuel as injector 2. A mystery



#7 mab01uk

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 03:13 PM

I posted this article below a while back which might be worth a read and covers many different reasons for misfires....

 

Mini Mpi Diagnostics - Car Mechanics Magazine:-

https://www.theminif...zine/?p=1171123


Edited by mab01uk, 17 October 2023 - 03:21 PM.


#8 sonscar

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 03:41 PM

All the ECU does is ground the injector,it cannot ground it more than the other.It can ground it for longer and you would need an oscilloscope to prove this.The reader only shows the commanded pulse width and the actual may vary.Have you moved the injector and does the fault then move with it?just some ideas,Steve..

#9 Jaforward

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 03:51 PM

Yes the injectors have been swapped and the fault stays on injector 1. I believe the issue is how the ECU grounds the injector, from what I understand it uses 2 of the 4 injector circuits paired together one to get the injector initially open then the other to ground it out quickly to control the amount injected. Yes the next stage is to compare the injector pulses on the scope and see if there is any difference. I believe the ECU thinks it’s running them the same but isn’t.



#10 Jaforward

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Posted 17 October 2023 - 03:54 PM

Mab01uk, thank you & yes I had read that very informative article.



#11 Ethel

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Posted 18 October 2023 - 12:53 PM

Yes the injectors have been swapped and the fault stays on injector 1. I believe the issue is how the ECU grounds the injector, from what I understand it uses 2 of the 4 injector circuits paired together one to get the injector initially open then the other to ground it out quickly to control the amount injected. Yes the next stage is to compare the injector pulses on the scope and see if there is any difference. I believe the ECU thinks it’s running them the same but isn’t.

 

Isn't it the same ECU from a more complex multipoint system so it can do variable injection for the siamese ports? Overlapping 4 channels into 2 pairs would be a way to get control of opening & closing injector timing instead of just a common duration variable across all 4.

 

Maybe there's only one of the channels operating on the 3-4 pair so it closes when the 2nd channel should still be keeping it open?

 

Pure speculation again.



#12 mab01uk

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Posted 18 October 2023 - 01:59 PM

Ex-Rover Engineer Mike Theaker on the Development of the Twin Point Injection system for the Mini.
Link to interesting PDF below:-
http://www.turbomini...ts/493117-1.pdf

 

(September 2000 Miniworld magazine)


Edited by mab01uk, 18 October 2023 - 02:00 PM.


#13 sonscar

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Posted 18 October 2023 - 03:36 PM

I understood that there are two injector channels which in conjunction with the cam synch fire twice per revolution this giving fully sequential injection.The injectors are unusualy large due to the small timeframe due to the Siamese ports.You will have to scope the injector to measure the opening time.
This is my understanding based on old research I made when injecting my Siamese port MGB.Steve..

#14 Ethel

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Posted 18 October 2023 - 09:57 PM

Can't remember the details but it's defo got the same ECU hardware as something more exotic, for Rover, to do the trickery needed for the siamese ports, possibly a VVC MGF. As you say Steve, it's a very narrow window to squirt at just the outer cylinders.

 

 

..... more clueless speculation - could it be fuel pressure? Ok with the inner cylinders if they have longer duration at a lower rate of flow, but struggling to keep up the pressure for briefer high demand for the outers



#15 Lplus

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 08:40 AM

Given the actuation current is so different between 1/2 and 3/4 (presumably even with the injectors swapped over), I'd be looking for a slight resistance in the circuitry for the 3/4 injector reducing the current on that side.  I don't know if fuel delivery depends on current flow, but if so, given there is only one Lambda sensor, it seems possible that the ECU is richening up the mixture to try to compensate for poor performance of the 3/4 injector making the 1/2 injector run rich.

 

 

Even if the above isn't the case the idea that the two identical injectors fed by the same ECU are taking significantly different currents is something I'd address anyway.






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