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Brake Systems Help Needed


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#1 miniGTS

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Posted 21 March 2024 - 08:43 PM

So I currently have a dual master with a diagonal split system (on my 78/79 SA GTS). So left front goes to rear right and front right to left rear. From what I've read, these systems are not great.

Now that I am busy rebuilding the car, the current master cylinder which was originally fitted has pitting in the bore. So the question is, do I have this resleeved and keep it as diagonal split or change to something else.

Someone suggested I change to a single line system with a manual pressure valve to the rear.

I've also read that the yellow tag front to rear is a good option.

I will likely have new lines made up with bundy tubing as it's much cheaper and I have a tube bender.

Does the yellow tag system use a pressure valve of some sort? I know the top and bottom bores are different to compensate the pressure to the rear but is there also some other valve needed.

I have new rear wheel cylinders on order. I ordered 5/8 thinking I'll keep the diagonal split. That was before realising the master bore is pitted.

So if I go with the front/rear split system, what components do I need?

It would also be helpful if anyone knows how many and the length of lines I would need.

Edited by miniGTS, 21 March 2024 - 09:04 PM.


#2 nicklouse

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Posted 21 March 2024 - 08:55 PM

I would change to a front rear split.

 

re the single line I would check your local regs about changing from dual to single line.



#3 miniGTS

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Posted 21 March 2024 - 09:02 PM

Thanks, there won't be issues with local regulations.

So the yellow tag system? With 7.5 disks in front, what size rear wheel cylinders would be recommended?

Also can I run the yellow tag without a PDWA or pressure regulating valve?

Edited by miniGTS, 21 March 2024 - 10:39 PM.


#4 miniGTS

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Posted 22 March 2024 - 07:14 AM

I got a quote to resleeve my current master cyclinder with stainless steel for the equivalent of 35 to 40 gbp so I'd likely go with that option... and for a little bit exra they can also rebuild it with new seals. With prices in South Africa, changing to a different system with new master and either PDWA or other pressure valve will cost 5 to 6 times that...



#5 miniGTS

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Posted 22 March 2024 - 05:05 PM

I had a look at an old picture that shows how the brake lines were routed in my car and it looks really wrong.

 

It's supposed to be a diagonal split system but from the picture, it looks like the lines were plumbed front/rear split via the 2 3-way connectors on the bulkhead and no valve of any kind.

 

I know the diagonal split is not the best but the cost of converting is too high for me currently so I will just have my master resleeved with S/S and redo the lines in the engine bay to how a diagonal split should be.

 

It would be very helpful is someone has a picture of how the lines should be connected in a diagonal split system. I'd appreciate any pics that could show this...



#6 miniGTS

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Posted 22 March 2024 - 05:24 PM

This is how I think it should be...

 

Attached File  diagonal split.jpg   59.15K   7 downloads

 



#7 Spider

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Posted 22 March 2024 - 08:31 PM

Just be aware with either the Diagonal Split System you have or the Yellow Tag, a failure in either circuit - contrary to what we all likely thought - will result in total loss of Hydraulic Brakes.

 

Also, I see you are contemplating having your old cylinder re-sleaved, which can be a good option. You can use that cylinder for front / rear split, with a regulating valve of one type or another for the rears. This will allow you to go to a bigger rear wheel cylinder that will give more rear braking. 5/8" here would be a good option.



#8 miniGTS

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Posted 22 March 2024 - 09:14 PM

Thank you for your reply. So when I looked at the brake line layout that I had before I started the rebuild, it looks like it was front/rear split but in a very untidy way. I suppose with the resleeve and the fact that I'm getting new lines all around anyway, it wouldn't be too expensive to change to front rear split. But even with that split layout, if I understand correctly, if a master cylinder fails whether dual or single, diagonal or front/rear, the entire system fails anyway?

Is a pressure valve still necessary if I have 5/8 rear wheel cylinders and 7.5 disks?

If so, what is the most reliable option? None are cheap but safety is always priority. I think I read somewhere on the forum or it was someone on a local chat group who suggested the use of a manual pressure valve at the rear split on a front/rear system instead of a 3way connector.

If I go with that setup with master I have, I assume one line goes direct to the fronts via a 3way connector and one line goes to a pressure valve on the rear subframe and from the valve to each rear wheel cylinder, in my case 5/8 that will likely be delivered next week.

#9 Spider

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 12:42 AM

if I understand correctly, if a master cylinder fails whether dual or single, diagonal or front/rear, the entire system fails anyway?

 

Yes, you are understanding me correctly here.  The idea of a Tandem System is supposed to be fail safe (in the event of a hydraulic failure), however with the Green, Black (you have one of these types) and Yellow Tag masters, I have simulated failures in these and with all, in a failure mode, the pedal goes all the way to the floor with no pressure there what so ever. A failure is very easy to simulate, just crack open a bleed nipple on either front or rear.

The other 'thing' with Tandem systems, is there's more rubber in the system so the pedal has a marked spongier feel when compared to single circuit.

 

 

Is a pressure valve still necessary if I have 5/8 rear wheel cylinders and 7.5 disks?

 

Yes. The Valve is there to stop the Rear Brakes from locking up.

 

In production, there was 3 different valves used. There was that mostly used with the Single Circuit set up, that fits to the front rail of the rear subframe, there was also in some cars the Inertia Valve (my favorite), which was mounted to the right rail of the rear subframe. Either of these are good, though I rate the Inertia Valve the cream of the crop as it takes in to account how fast you are stopping and the load in the back when controlling the braking pressure to the rear brakes, rather than reaching a certain pressure and shutting off regardless. The third valve is the FAM7821 and it's 5 port version FAM4670 are in my experience, little more than junk. They are overly complex for what they do, add even more rubber in to the system, part of the 'polished' internals breaths to atmosphere, only leading to premature rusting, they can't be dismantled for servicing and there's no kits available in any case.

 

 

If so, what is the most reliable option? None are cheap but safety is always priority. I think I read somewhere on the forum or it was someone on a local chat group who suggested the use of a manual pressure valve at the rear split on a front/rear system instead of a 3way connector.

 

From my experience, I don't think any one particular set up (single vs tandem) is any more reliable or unreliable than any others, except for those that have the FAM7821 and the FAM4670 valves in them, as noted above. The best thing you can do with any brake system to be sure of it's reliability is regular maintenance, including changing of the fluid, a full close inspection of all the lines & hoses and periodically stripping down all cylinders giving them a light hone and rebuilding them with new rubbers. The factory recommend the latter here every 3 years of 40 000 moles, which ever is sooner.

In regards to manual pressure valve - is this a manually operated valve or a (manually) set pressure point ? 
I would suggest not running a manually operated valve, if that's what it is.

You can run with a manually adjusted set point type to really optimise the rear brakes, just be aware, they can take a while to set up and should be done in worst conditions. In the pre-set factory versions, there was (from memory) 5 or 7 different pressure valve used.
 



#10 miniGTS

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 07:21 AM

Thank you for your detailed reply. This helps a lot. So I think I'll go with the front/rear layout and get a pressure regulating valve for the rear. I doubt I'd find an inertia valve here but I'll ask around.

Are those rear mount valves serviceable?

As for the manual valve I mentioned, it's a manually adjustable valve.

Also, you mentioned there were a few pre-set pressure valves. How would I know which one I need?

The local supplier I normally use seems to only stock the one from minispares but I'm sure they can source another type if I ask.

I have braided hoses to replace the rubber ones, do you think that would reduce the spongy pedal from the dual master?

#11 miniGTS

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 09:41 AM

It seems there is a mk1/mk2 brake pressure regulator valve for the cars that had 5/8 wheel cylinders and there's a mk3 one for cars that used 3/4 wheel cylinders. The one available locally is the mk3 version so I could get that and change the 5/8 for 3/4 wheel cylinders.

The difference between the 2 pressure regulator valves is the spring

#12 Spider

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 10:00 AM

This would be the valve to get from your local supplier;-

 

http://www.minispare...|Back to search

 

These are serviceable though I'm not 100% sure what the availability presently is on kits.

 

The braided hoses will help with pedal feel, but I'm not crazy about them. You can't easily determine the condition of them and you also can't pinch them off like you can with rubber hoses, when working on the brakes.

 

Fitting 3/4" rear wheel cylinders will result in the rears locking if you have discs up front. Using that Valve that's used with them won't help here.

 



#13 miniGTS

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 10:11 AM

Thanks again. That's the one I thought I would need so will rather stick with the 5/8 and ask them to order that valve.

Regarding the hoses, I never thought of that. Nonetheless, I have them so gonna use them.

Thank you again, your advice is much appreciated.

#14 miniGTS

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 10:49 AM

One more question, would the top or bottom go to the rear or doesn't that matter with the master I have?

#15 Spider

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Posted 23 March 2024 - 11:45 AM

Normally the bottom port is connected to the Fronts.






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