Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Rear Wheel Toe-In


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#16 68+86auto

68+86auto

    One Carb Or Two?

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 989 posts
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia
  • Local Club: Queensland Mini Car Club

Posted 24 June 2025 - 10:49 PM

 

 

Here we go again.  Minis aren't metric.

 

The OP should have 1/8" toe in, but says that he has a metric 43 minutes

 

Is there a different angle measurement that anyone uses other than degrees/minutes/seconds for alignments? Should we be using radians?

1/8" or inches aren't an angle.

 

I guess in past times you'd measure the distance between the bulgiest part* of the left and right tyres, first at the front of the tyres, then at the back of the same tyres. The difference in lengths gives the toe "measurement". Since the angle was fixed by the manufactured shapes of the rear subframe and the arms it was, presumably, considered unadjustable so any discrepancy in the distance measurement (if anyone ever bothered to measure) would've probably been corrected - at least at a main dealer - by replacing those parts.

 

*Actually, at a given radius from the wheel centre, but I'm guessing (for 10" wheels at least) they're the same, specified that way for ease of measurement.

 

Now, we routinely check both sides separately and have ways of making adjustments, so measuring the total toe (L+R) isn't so helpful. Although the simple distance-difference between a fore-and-aft line (e.g. a string) and the bulgiest parts of the front and back of one tyre remains a good way to measure toe, so expressing it as a distance remains useful. The two distances (radius-from-centre (x2) and amount of toe) can be converted to an angle but if you're setting-up using a ruler and a string, it's not especially helpful to do this... so long as everyone uses the same radius-from-centre.

 

There seems - hardly surprising - frequent confusion whether the factory toe specification refers to one wheel, or the total of two wheels combined. This occurs irrespective of whether it's expressed as distance or angle. I remain uncertain myself on this and have to look it up every time I measure. But maybe that's just me and my old, old memory. It'd be great to have one pinned thread with a picture of what exactly the numbers should be at each wheel and how they can be measured-off against strings.

 

 

Even the workshop manual says that using angles is preferred. Angles have been used since about the 50s however equipment still displayed inches or mm. Probably because minutes are too confusing for the average person and "alignment technician"

 

Alignment data is usually clear as to being total or individual wheels, it is usually total as individual is just half. What can be confusing is the +/- symbols to indicate toe in/out. Older data is usually titled "toe in" due to vehicles all being RWD and in that case, the "-" indicates toe out. Newer data is usually labelled "toe" and therefore "+" means toe out and "-" means toe in.



#17 DeadSquare

DeadSquare

    Up Into Fourth

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,173 posts
  • Location: Herefordshire
  • Local Club: Unipower GT Owners Club

Posted 25 June 2025 - 06:41 AM

I have just looked it up.  My trusty, Issue 4" Workshop Manual, only mentions "1/8" toe in".

 

Please, let us not bicker.  My "Here we go again", was a jest reference to recently running posts about good old imperial nuts and bolts.



#18 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,079 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 25 June 2025 - 07:43 AM

 

 

 

Here we go again.  Minis aren't metric.

 

The OP should have 1/8" toe in, but says that he has a metric 43 minutes

 

Is there a different angle measurement that anyone uses other than degrees/minutes/seconds for alignments? Should we be using radians?

1/8" or inches aren't an angle.

 

 

There's several ways it can be measured. None are wrong.

 

 

Not saying inches are wrong, it was just that DeadSquare seemed to be saying the degrees are metric or "wrong"

 

 

I'm on the same page ;D



#19 sledgehammer

sledgehammer

    Up Into Fourth

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,107 posts
  • Location: I'm sittin here besides my self

Posted 25 June 2025 - 08:20 AM

Just to throw a spanner (imperial) in the works -

 

is wheel base correct both sides ? & Has the toe board been repaired ?

 

Has a plate been put over rust repair (moving the subframe backwards that side ?
 

are subby bolts & all trunnion bushes good (my sill bolts were held in with silicon on my current mini)

 

has the subframe been replaced (even genuineish heritage can be out) 

It only takes a few 1/16 out to build up

 

I've had a few mini's where the rear subby has been forced into the shell to fit .

(Making it a bu&&er to fit a new one)

also has the inner radius arm pin hole elongated - worth a look?

 

sorry to make more points to look at , but a bit of movement in any of the above area's can sometimes help to correct the problem .



#20 MikeJE

MikeJE

    Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 134 posts
  • Location: Surrey
  • Local Club: LSMO

Posted 26 June 2025 - 07:47 AM

Just to throw a spanner (imperial) in the works -

 

is wheel base correct both sides ? & Has the toe board been repaired ?

 

Has a plate been put over rust repair (moving the subframe backwards that side ?
 

are subby bolts & all trunnion bushes good (my sill bolts were held in with silicon on my current mini)

 

has the subframe been replaced (even genuineish heritage can be out) 

It only takes a few 1/16 out to build up

 

I've had a few mini's where the rear subby has been forced into the shell to fit .

(Making it a bu&&er to fit a new one)

also has the inner radius arm pin hole elongated - worth a look?

 

sorry to make more points to look at , but a bit of movement in any of the above area's can sometimes help to correct the problem .

 

Many thanks, SH. I have had the car for 14 years and the subframe has never been touched (and there is no rust or dodgy repair anywhere there that I am aware of) although I did replace the radius arms some time ago. I will go over everything you suggest to see if there is anything that can explain the discrepancy. That is really helpful, thank you so much.

 

Best wishes

 

Mike



#21 sledgehammer

sledgehammer

    Up Into Fourth

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,107 posts
  • Location: I'm sittin here besides my self

Posted 26 June 2025 - 08:19 AM

Another question , is it feathering / wearing the tread on the tyre concerned ?

 

the inner nut for the radius arm pin can shift with little evidence (apart from rust dust)

 

but can elongate the hole ,
 

as someone suggested , the outer bearing can break up & revolve , but still stay tight ,

 

another check to do , is chock the suspect wheel tight , push the car backward & forwards quickly ,

look for changes in wheelbase , and wheel in wheel arch , to indicate if something is loose , which can't be felt by hand ,

Hopefully all ok & easy fix

 

edit - hopefully they would have checked for a slightly buckled wheel before starting the alignment


Edited by sledgehammer, 26 June 2025 - 08:22 AM.


#22 MikeJE

MikeJE

    Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 134 posts
  • Location: Surrey
  • Local Club: LSMO

Posted 28 June 2025 - 09:49 PM

Another question , is it feathering / wearing the tread on the tyre concerned ?

 

the inner nut for the radius arm pin can shift with little evidence (apart from rust dust)

 

but can elongate the hole ,
 

as someone suggested , the outer bearing can break up & revolve , but still stay tight ,

 

another check to do , is chock the suspect wheel tight , push the car backward & forwards quickly ,

look for changes in wheelbase , and wheel in wheel arch , to indicate if something is loose , which can't be felt by hand ,

Hopefully all ok & easy fix

 

edit - hopefully they would have checked for a slightly buckled wheel before starting the alignment

Many thanks again, SH, some very helpful suggestions there.

 

best wishes

 

Mike






2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users