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Help to get the Gauges Working


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#1 I-B-Quick

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 10:02 AM

Hi All - first post.

Just bought a Mini after many years of not having one. Very nice restored Mk1 but needs a few finishing off bits as they always do.

Biggest problem to overcome is that none of the gauges work. I've yet to have a look but wanted some advice or good ideas on what to potentially look for. The loom is all brand new as are the gauges. Its a negative earth loom for an alternator. Car starts and runs and lighting all works to gauges just no ignition or fasher lamps, fuel or temp gauge.

Any thoughts out there.

thanks

Edited by I-B-Quick, 20 July 2007 - 10:02 AM.


#2 Ethel

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 10:28 AM

Temp and fuel gauges should be supplied through a voltage regulator, check that it's there and it's connected - it's just a chunky squarish white block on the back of the speedo if I remember correctly.

#3 Jupitus

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 10:33 AM

Temp and fuel gauges should be supplied through a voltage regulator, check that it's there and it's connected - it's just a chunky squarish white block on the back of the speedo if I remember correctly.


If you have a single centre dial, this may help...

#4 Udo

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 11:26 AM

Stupid question but have you checked the bulbs are fitted?

As above for the supply to the fuel and temp, earth for fuel is thru the sender in the tank so try disconnecting the tank end and touching to earth, should cause the gauge to read full which points to a faulty sender unit, If it doesnt then its either the wiring or the gauge itself


Earth for temp is the engine block so try removing the wire on the temp sender and touching it to earth. If this causes the gauge to shoot up to hot then the sender is faulty. If it doesnt then its either the wiring or the gauge itself

oh and welcome to the site!

#5 dklawson

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 11:45 AM

More information is needed about what year your Mk1 is. The voltage stabilizer mentioned above didn't appear until after September of 1964. You said "none of the gauges work". I assume you mean the temperature and fuel gauges don't work. The oil pressure gauge (when fitted) is mechanical and should work if the plumbing is in place.

During restorations it's a common problem for the pre- and post-1964 components to get mixed. Pictures of the back of your gauge cluster, the fuel sending unit on the tank, and the temperature sending unit on the cylinder head will help us help you.

#6 I-B-Quick

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 05:53 PM

More information is needed about what year your Mk1 is. The voltage stabilizer mentioned above didn't appear until after September of 1964. You said "none of the gauges work". I assume you mean the temperature and fuel gauges don't work. The oil pressure gauge (when fitted) is mechanical and should work if the plumbing is in place.

During restorations it's a common problem for the pre- and post-1964 components to get mixed. Pictures of the back of your gauge cluster, the fuel sending unit on the tank, and the temperature sending unit on the cylinder head will help us help you.


Thanks for the replies - although it is a 61 it has a had a new loom fitted but updated to include rev counter, alternator, neg earth, two speed wiper, and pre engaged starter. It still retains floor starter button and headlight dip switch. The gauges are new and have the voltage regulator mentioned above on the back of the speedo. I've wired it as per Haynes manual suggests for the voltage regulator versions but still no luck on the temp or fuel gauge and even the rev counter isn't working so I'm a bit stumped now. Added some photos if it helps.

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#7 dklawson

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 12:04 AM

I need one more picture from you.

The car is/was a '61 and that means that it was not originally built with the voltage stabilizer for the gauges (introduced in late 1964). The fuel tank picture shows the later type of sending unit which requires a fuel gauge designed for the stabilizer. The two fuel gauges look the same on the front but their back sides look different. The gauge you need will have two spade lugs for the wire connections and there will either be two holes in the back with screwdriver slots in them, or... there may be two small cork disks plugging those holes. The early fuel gauge (that cannot be used with your current fuel sender) will have two spade lugs and two small brass cylinders that stick out of "slots" on the back of the gauge.

On first glance at your pictures, the wiring looks OK. Check that you have battery voltage on the "B" terminal of the stabilizer when the ignition is on. One wire on the "B" terminal is supplying switched, fused power. The second wire should be going off to power your fresh air blower in the passenger compartment. Lacking a volt meter, if the blower doesn't work it indicates no power is being fed to the stabilizer (or the fan). The "I" terminal on the stabilizer goes to the "instruments". I only saw one wire on your dash, but that wire may split to feed both gauges.

Look on the back of both the fuel and temp gauges. Each should have a wire going back to the stabilizer's "I" terminal. The other terminal on each gauge goes off to its sending unit. (i.e., There should be a green/black wire on the fuel gauge that goes back to the fuel sending unit in the boot.) Since your problem is affecting so many electrical systems I suspect the new harness has been connected incorrectly to the ignition switch. But you have to start at the end of the harness and move back toward the battery to determine where you're loosing voltage.

The ignition lamp is another story and this needs to be sorted out right now before you start using the car. Since you have an alternator conversion, the warning light MUST work to allow the alternator to work. The warning light socket will have two wires, one white the other brownish (something). The white wire goes to the ignition switch. With the bulb removed and the ignition on look for 12V between the white wire terminal in the socket and chassis ground. Visually inspect the bulb and confirm its filament is intact. Replace the bulb and disconnect the plug from the alternator. With the ignition on you should be able to probe the connector on the harness and find 12V between the small brownish wire and chassis ground.

Hazard flasher? Not original on a Mk1 so I can't help with that.

One small point. Though the box on the back of the speed is in fact a switch-mode voltage regulator, it is referred to as the voltage stabilizer to keep from confusing it with the regulator... which is part of the charging system.

Let us know what you find for all these voltage checks but start with the alternator wiring as it is most important.

#8 I-B-Quick

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 10:37 PM

Doug

Thanks for all your help so far. I have run a few checks with my voltmeter and have the following. The ignition warning light is indeed working when the ignition is first turned on and goes out once the engine fires so I'm assuming that is working fine.

Checked the voltage stabilizer "B" terminal and that gives a 12v reading only when the ign is switched so that's good too. I don't however get any reading between earth and the "I" side of the terminal. This doesn't seem correct to me but I may be wrong. Could the stabilzer be blown ?

I have also just realiased the previous owner hadn't connected the correct fuel sender wire to the guage so that was clearly never going to work. I will rectify this error.

So in conclusion I have switched live feed to the "B" side of the stabiliser but still no reading on the temp gauge ( yet to try the fuel again until I sort out the wire connection)
The fuel gauge does have the two small holes you mention in the back. ( is there some adjustment required in there?)

I do also seem to get a 12v reading between batt + and both terminals on the fuel sender - again this seems wrong to me.

Does it also matter which spade terminal the feed from the "I" terminal connects to on both temp and fuel gauge verses the sender units wire (ie live feed left and sender feed right if looking from back of gauge?)

again thanks for your help - do you mind me mailing you direct ?

Edited by I-B-Quick, 07 August 2007 - 10:38 PM.


#9 dklawson

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 02:40 AM

Hi. You can PM me through this board for starters.

Lets work backwards through your findings.

It really does not matter which terminal on the gauge is connected to the stabilizer "I" terminal. The later gauges (like you should have) are very simple devices. A resistance wire is wrapped around a bimetallic strip connected to the gauge's needle. Current flowing through the resistance wire in the gauge causes it to heat up which in turn heats and deflects the bimetallic strip... moving the needle. The sending unit is basically throttling the amount of current flowing. The current can flow either direction to heat the wire... so it doesn't matter which gauge terminal goes to the "I" terminal or to the sending unit.

You found that the PO had not connected the correct wire between the fuel sending unit and the gauge. You also found that you had 12V between each side of the sending unit and the battery (+) terminal. That makes perfect sense. The sending unit is a variable resistor. When connected properly, one side of the sending unit is connected to earth ground and the other side goes off to the gauge. As mentioned above, the variable resistance of the sending unit throttles current flow through the gauge. You determined the "far end" of the wire is not connected to the gauge. When you're measuring between the sending unit terminals and battery (+)... in both instances you're measuring between the battery and earth. A better way to examine the sending unit is to disconnect the green/black wire from the sending unit, put your meter in resistance mode and connect it between chassis ground and the "bare" terminal where the green/black wire was. Move the float arm up and down using a coat hanger or bent wire through the filler neck. Full up should be close to 30 ohms on the meter. When you push the arm down, the meter should show increasing resistance, approaching 270 ohms when the arm is all the way down (empty).

There are numerous reports of NOS Smiths stabilizers being DOA. An acquaintance of mine in Washington State found on one occasion that he had to go through 5 new ones before he found one that worked. For more info on the stabilizer and a way to make your own solid-state replacement, see my PDF:
http://home.mindspri...eStabilizer.pdf
There are usually people on eBay (and elsewhere) who make pre-packaged solid-state replacements. Those are good alternatives (though pricey) if you don't want to make your own. Anyway, with the ignition on and 12V on the "B" terminal, the stabilizer should have SOME output. It's often very hard to read with a digital volt meter as the output of the stabilizer is actually swinging between 12V and 0V as it operates. Someone is bound to post that you need to check the ground on the stabilizer. The symptoms you report do not indicate a ground problem. IF the stabilizer looses its ground, it passes a full, unregulated 12V to the gauges and they read "high". You measured no voltage which implies that the stabilizer's internal points are glazed over or oxidized. Read through the PDF and this will make more sense.

It sounds like the ignition warning lamp portion of your charging system is OK. From your earlier post it didn't sound right. Anyway, it sounds like you're seeing the proper behavior (lamp on with ignition on and engine not running, lamp off with the engine running).

I'd say your next step is to find, buy, or make a new stabilizer for your gauges followed by correcting the wiring mistakes between the sending units and the gauges. I'd still like to see a photograph of the back of your fuel gauge. I'd like to confirm that whoever put your gauge package together is using the bimetallic type gauge and not the early type used before 1965. Since your car is a combination of new and old, it's an area that could have a mistake. The gauges used before the stabilizer was introduced cannot be used with the later sending units... which you have.

#10 GraemeC

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:07 AM

Gents,

Please don't take this onto PMs or email - I think it is a valuable thread, information wise, to be kept on the forum for others to reference later (if they bother to search!).

#11 I-B-Quick

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:53 AM

Gents,

Please don't take this onto PMs or email - I think it is a valuable thread, information wise, to be kept on the forum for others to reference later (if they bother to search!).


No problem - just didn't want to clog up the forum with my own electrical problems which are more specfic due to the wiring updates rather than generic problems other owners may have.

Hopefully there will be a happy ending for all to read.

#12 I-B-Quick

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:56 AM

Doug

Thanks - I'll post a further picture of the gauges. They were all purchased at the same time according to the invoice I have. I will also look into the pdf and voltage stabilizer replacement test.

regards

Neal

#13 I-B-Quick

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 02:26 PM

Appreciate comments on using this as my voltage stabilizer replacement. At £8 it seems worth a go to see if it clears some of my problems up.

http://www.freewebs....izers/index.htm

#14 dklawson

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 04:24 PM

The link above is for one of the products I've seen advertised before. If they really are just 8 GBP, that seems a very fair price. You can make them cheaper by building them yourself (if you build a bunch of them), but weigh that against your comfort level building electrical components and factor in your time. I'd pay 8 GBP for it.

#15 I-B-Quick

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 10:18 PM

Pictures of the gauges. Plus close up of switches on back of rev counter. Anyone know if these are set correctly ?

thanks

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