25 replies to this topic

[Amy]

Before regulations came in...I guess there were no rules relating to this (i.e. you need no certificate?) So how would any authority know when the wiring was installed, and as such if it needs a certificate? Or does all wiring need to be certificated regardless to when it was installed?

I'm NOT suggesting do it yourself and claim it was done a long time ago! I know how dangerous electrics can be, and would only ever use a qualified sparky for any work in the house (apart from changing a light bulb maybe!)

They changed all the colour coding and coatings on the cable when the new Part P regs came into force....

Of course there are people who have stocks of the old stuff and will continue using it to get round the regs and won't be giving out certificates for their work.....



For anyone thinking of paying someone on the cheap, please think again. If there was a fire in your home and it was traced back to non certified work you won't be insured.

[Ethel]

if you want a 12v system you would have to run a very very big cable to over come volt drop

with out doing the calculations i would guess something like 32mm for 20 meters of cable run

That seems a lot, I guess it depends on the current being drawn?

What about emergency supply stuff, I've seen some pretty huge battery cabinets on those systems.

[Bungle]

For anyone thinking of paying someone on the cheap, please think again. If there was a fire in your home and it was traced back to non certified work you won't be insured.

solicitors are also hotting up on paper work on houses being sold

[Millers Mini]

I am a qualified electrical engineer and can advise that harmonisation (cable colour change) actually happened about 6 months prior to part 'P' and therefore if you want to go down the route of saying it was installed a while ago it would need to be after christmas 2004 and prior to July 2005 I think.

As far as what to install your best bet would be a 6mm 3C armoured preferably buried in the garden at about 500mm deep feed via an RCD in the house and connected to a small 2 way DB in the garage, 1 way connected to a socket and the other to a light.

Once installed you could then ask a qualified electrian to test it for you which should only take about an hour so you might get away with 1/2 day labour. You are probably looking at about £150 in material depending on the run of armoured as thats the most expensive bit.

[Bungle]

I am a qualified electrical engineer and can advise that harmonisation (cable colour change) actually happened about 6 months prior to part 'P' and therefore if you want to go down the route of saying it was installed a while ago it would need to be after christmas 2004 and prior to July 2005 I think.

As far as what to install your best bet would be a 6mm 3C armoured preferably buried in the garden at about 500mm deep feed via an RCD in the house and connected to a small 2 way DB in the garage, 1 way connected to a socket and the other to a light.

Once installed you could then ask a qualified electrian to test it for you which should only take about an hour so you might get away with 1/2 day labour. You are probably looking at about £150 in material depending on the run of armoured as thats the most expensive bit.

the 16th edition of the regs came out before this so even if you said the installation was carried out in 2005 it should still have a certificate for the job

as well as a RCD in the house it would help if the supply was fused a RCD will not help a over load

[Dan]

Oh thanks Millers Mini and Neon, that's exactly what wasn't supposed to happen here. Telling people 'just do it like this and pretend it was done before it became illegal' is what I didn't want to happen. For one thing being a qualified electrical engineer is entirely different from being a qualified electrician. For another harmonisation actually took 2 years, started before and finished after part P was introduced so there was a long period when both colour schemes were just as valid and there are part P compliant installations in the proper British colours. Also there was never a published date when the original colours became illegal, it is still legal to use them to repair or augment an existing installation if you can find any. New colours are only an essential requirement on new installations. The colours themselves tell you nothing definite about the age of work, aside from the new colours only being available here after a certain date.

To save money, dig the trench, rig the catenary (be aware that there are 16th edition requirements for the depth of trenches and height of catenaries) or tack the armoured to the wall yourself. Drill the mounting holes and chop out for boxes. Beyond that use an electrician for everything. So lets get back to responsible advice please.

[Millers Mini]

Oh thanks Millers Mini and Neon, that's exactly what wasn't supposed to happen here. Telling people 'just do it like this and pretend it was done before it became illegal' is what I didn't want to happen. For one thing being a qualified electrical engineer is entirely different from being a qualified electrician. For another harmonisation actually took 2 years, started before and finished after part P was introduced so there was a long period when both colour schemes were just as valid and there are part P compliant installations in the proper British colours. Also there was never a published date when the original colours became illegal, it is still legal to use them to repair or augment an existing installation if you can find any. New colours are only an essential requirement on new installations. The colours themselves tell you nothing definite about the age of work, aside from the new colours only being available here after a certain date.

To save money, dig the trench, rig the catenary (be aware that there are 16th edition requirements for the depth of trenches and height of catenaries) or tack the armoured to the wall yourself. Drill the mounting holes and chop out for boxes. Beyond that use an electrician for everything. So lets get back to responsible advice please.

Dan you are quite right by saying that a qualified electrical engineer is entirely different from an electrician because for me to become an engineer I served a 7 year electrical apprentiship followed by a further 5 years of day release doing an ONC and HNC and now work for a large electrical contracting company telling electricians what to do so I believe that makes me qualified.

You have repeated what I said about harmonisation in so far as it started prior to part 'P' and therefore any installation carried out in the new colours before part 'p' didn’t require building control approval.

If you check the last part of my previous quote you will see that it advises the installation be tested by a qualified electrician which will therefore insure it has been done correctly.

In conclusion you appear to be saying that only qualified people should carryout technical tasks and nobody should do DIY jobs which kind off defeats the object of this forum.

[chairchild]

Only when it comes to domestic electrics - and mainly because there are quite a lot of laws surrounding them



As for using 12v for the feed, you would have to use a hugely thick wire just to carry the current needed - but if you insisted on going this route, I'd say to go for an AC 12v feed, as you wont encounter as much of a volt-drop. But I'd seriously suggest getting a 240v supply fitted, as it's far more useful!



also, if you plan ahead where the cables could be routed, you could also clear away any furniture/etc, and pull up any carpets or floorboards that may need to be moved for access, or inspection

[Dan]

I never suggested that you were less qualified than an electrician Millers Mini, there's no need to become so defensive. Only that you are differently qualified and whatever you may believe you are qualified to do unless you have 16th edition and part P certification you are not qualified to work on or design domestic installations, it really is that simple.

If you check the last part of my previous quote you will see that it advises the installation be tested by a qualified electrician which will therefore insure it has been done correctly.

But NOT legally, this would only be possible if the plans had been submitted to building control at the council first and inspected and approved by their electrical department. Then and only then an amateur may do the work but it must be inspected and certified once completed before it can be connected to anything live. As I said before.

In conclusion you appear to be saying that only qualified people should carryout technical tasks and nobody should do DIY jobs which kind off defeats the object of this forum.

It's not me that's saying this, it's the law. There is a very strict list of what tasks may be carried out on a domestic electrical installation by an amateur or non approved, self-certifying person without involving building control and almost any work at all in a special area (outside the main building, in a kitchen, bathroom or garage and some other areas) or any new circuit joined to the consumer unit is outside the scope of non certified work.

I'm not trying to get into an argument or offend anyone here, I'm pointing out the law and I asked right at the start for nobody to get involved if they weren't self certifying. You know whether you have taken the part-P or not, if you haven't you aren't qualified.

[Amy]

Dan's right...

As most people know, my partner Simon is both an electronic engineer and fully qualified, working electrician. But he chooses not to give advice on this forum, as he thinks it will encourage people to carry out the work themselves or pay somebody on the cheap.

The new regs aren't even a one off exam, they are on going tests with inspectors checking your work throughout each year and the Part P stuff gets updated constantly. So unless you are a working certificated electrician it would be impossible to know ALL the laws and regulations surrounding domestic electrics these days. It is crazy though, they have managed to put people out of work with 40 years of experience, because they simply can't afford to be Part P qualified. Hence why electricians have to charge so much for call outs and work - the certificates don't come cheap!

But it's there for a reason and I stand by my first comment (to everyone)....
Just get a couple of quotes from local fully ticketed electricians and choose the person you think is most suitable for the job. There are some things just not worth risking, paying a 'bloke down the pub' or attempting to do it yourself is just daft!

[Millers Mini]

Guys I totally appreciate what you are saying and sorry for being so defensive but all I am trying to do is be a little helpful and save a fellow mini owner some cash.

I am not suggesting the use of cowboys or doing dodgy DIY which is why I recommended the installation be tested once completed by a fully qualified electrician who can provide a full NICEIC test certificate for the test.

Sorry again as it wasn’t my intention to start an argument.