39 replies to this topic

[DaveRob]

I use timkins..... and their is NO grease supllied, its a bearing and normally bearing suppliers supply bearings not kits...... if i was you Id order bearings from M Machine or Minispares......... they wont come with grease...... get some Castrol LM and pack the bearing correctl..... what torque ar you doing the castle nut up to?
Rob

Sorry Rob, I have had a quick look through my stock and they all come with grease

Thats interesting......... Ive always bought mine from M Machine.... who get stuff from MiniSpares <EEEEK>.... and have never had any grease packs in them........ Im not saying anyones right or wrong.... just my experience.... I have Castrol LM coming out me ears at work tho... so no problems..... thanks for the heads up MRA

Rob

[MRA]

Is the torque setting gonna be completely different for the castle nut in 13inch wheels as compared with 10 or 12 inch wheels?
We followed what the haynes manual said.

chloe

Hi Chloe,

If you use the setting for disc braked Minis then you would be ok... once torqued up tweak it up until the split pin holes are aligned

Regards Martin

[Rustic's missus]

Any more options. I do torque it up correctly. well i follow the one in the haynes manual, was wandering if it was any different setting for the sportspack wheels?
I torque it, then tweak it so that the holes are aligned for the split pin.
How come the roller bearings don't last?


chloe

[MRA]

This is probably a case of not tightening them up with a flat washer first....

I use Timken bearings the secret is to NOT fit the coned washer but to tighten using a flat washer go for a cup of tea...... then gently remove flat washer and lightly grease cone washer and nut and torque up.....

However I would now suggest that before you do any of this you need to check your CV joints, as I am sure they will have been damaged by the bearings running on them

also take a look at CV fitting in this forum

I have laid out exactly what needs to be done a few times now in quite some depth

Fitting roller bearings in a sports pack will simply wear out quicker.

Because they are not fitted correctly............ are you using a flat washer first ? and have you checked your CV joints where the bearing sits if there is a groove then they are scrap and won't last long at all

[Sprocket]

The problem with repeated short life failures of front wheel bearings could be attributed to wear in the hub. You can tighten the hub nut right up to the correct torque setting with everything appearing to be satisfactory, but there may not be enough pre load on the bearing and in some cases you can still feel play in the bearing. What you are basicaly doing is compressing both bearing inner races, the spacer and the drive flange together on the CV joint shaft, thus achieving the torque on the nut, but because the hub is worn, the outer races are just a little closer together. It doesnt take much, 0.3mm difference I measured on two spacers, that was the diffeence to a loose pre load and a tight pre load. A loose pre load will allow the roller to slide rather than roll, this sliding creates flat spots on the rollers, and from that point on, the bearing is on a short life span.



Next bearings you do, leave the spacer out and see if that makes a difference. Fit a new taper washer and hub nut, and make sure there is no wear on the CV joint where the taper washer seats on the CV joint itself

I have to admit that even though I replaced the bearings on mine just before christmas, I am suffering a failure and I am hoping its the non genuine bearing I fitted that is on its way out rather than the genuine old stock Timken. There is no play in the bearing, but it runs rough. Just cant remember which side i fitted what

While fitting ball bearings instead of the roller bearings is one solution, I do not think its the right one. Correctly pre loaded roller bearings should last far longer than many that are failing. I have no faith whatsoever in the cheap Chinese crap thats going round. Buy only high quality bearings from reputable manufacturers, but even then that is probably Made in China. I try and buy new old stock timken bearings where I can, but those are becoming thinner on the ground

[MRA]

I last replaced both front wheel bearings on my own Cooper and that was 22000 miles ago..... I have to disagree with worn hub syndrome, if they are that worn you would feel the slackness as you fit the bearings.......

The simple fact proven time and time again..... is tighten up using a FLAT washer without fitting the cone washer this pulls the whole assembly together leave for 30 mins just to "seat in" and the go back and gently remove the flat washer placing the cone washer back in the drive flange and fit nut and tighten torque etc..... job done now you will not feel any slack simples yes ?

The slack is caused by the cone washer "gripping" the CV and NOT allowing it to pull forward and hence tighten correctly........ it stays loose

Timken are either made in Germany, or China..... al new ones will be made in China from about now onwards

Edited by mra-minis.co.uk, 22 April 2009 - 09:43 PM.

[Sprocket]

So if I fit new bearings, remove the taper washer, fit the big flat washer, torque up the big nut and there is still a little slack, where has it gone wrong?

All the torque should go into the pre load of the bearings. If the inner races, spacer and drive flange all seat at some point in the torquing of the nut, the preload will be reduced and the bearing will fail

[Sprocket]

http://www.timken.co...ngs_English.pdf

http://www.timken.co...sis_English.pdf

http://www.timken.co...ngs_English.pdf

[MRA]

So if I fit new bearings, remove the taper washer, fit the big flat washer, torque up the big nut and there is still a little slack, where has it gone wrong?

All the torque should go into the pre load of the bearings. If the inner races, spacer and drive flange all seat at some point in the torquing of the nut, the preload will be reduced and the bearing will fail

******************

If you still have slack now.......... check your CV's for bearing fit to CV... what happens is the CV wears away and no amount of tightening will correct this

******************

http://www.timken.co...ngs_English.pdf

http://www.timken.co...sis_English.pdf

http://www.timken.co...ngs_English.pdf

The above 1st and 3rd "solutions" are for completely different bearing types........ Austin and Timken went through a lot of design and development to come up with the Mini solution.. which is unique

The flat washer does NOT stay as part of the installation...... and the spacer stops you from overtightening the bearings. if you leave it out well thats up to you but it will cause accelerated wear within the system, either the bearing will fail or the CV will be ruined......

[Sprocket]

Ok then, let me re phrase that.

If there is slack in the bearing when tightening the nut to the corect torque, with the taper washer removed, big flat washer fitted, new bearings, spacer fitted, and a servicable CV joint with no wear on any of the critical parts, where does the problem lie?

the reason I say this is, i repaired a mini that had a failed wheel bearing and it needed a new CV joint, new bearings, new taper washer new hub nut, but no matter how you fitted the parts, there was still slack in the bearing.

I was under the impression the timken taper roller bearings are a catalogue item, nothing special?

Also if the spacer prevents you from over tightening the bearing, does than not mean the there needs to be another method used to determine correct pre load of the bearing itself? remembering what I am trying to say about wear in the hub. if there is wear in the hub, you can tighten the nut as much as you want, but you generate no pre load on the bearings what so ever, and it is this that leads to rapid failures. Basicaly you are suggesting that the hub itself is a high tollerence machined part so that when correct pre load is applied to the wheel bearing it results in the spacer and inner races all bottoming out on each other?

Not having a go mate, its just how I understand it

[MRA]

Sorry Sprocket, the last thing I want to do is upset people or cause anyone to think that I am "having a go"

QUOTE
If there is slack in the bearing when tightening the nut to the corect torque, with the taper washer removed, big flat washer fitted, new bearings, spacer fitted, and a servicable CV joint with no wear on any of the critical parts, where does the problem lie?
QUOTE

it could be a few issues....

a) worn or damaged hub, I haven't seen this in almost 30 yrs of Mini's... but there's always a first time..

(EDIT - I have seen worn and damaged hubs, just not the centre part worn thin enough to throw all the tolerances out, to do this the outer bearing race would have to spin... a lot ! but with a massive bearing failure it could happen, its just got to be very rare the outer normally "walks" out of the hub, allowing it to move around but this would scrap the hub well before this happens, as your wheel would be all over the place END EDIT)

b) the bearing is incorrect - although the timken bearings are off the shelf they are matched to the spacer to form a complete kit of parts.
c) poor quality replacement parts, machined incorrectly etc.
d) The CV is undersized or worn / damaged - giving rise to slack within the bearing.
e) the washer is not thick enough to allow the nut to tighten correctly.
f) the nut or thread on the CV is incorrectly machined and does not allow for correct fixing.
g) could even be the drive flange.
h) worn / damaged splines on the CV and / or within the hub - stopping the CV from beong correctly tightened.

However if it didn't do it before, then it will be either wheel bearing and / or CV joint, or at least this is the area to look in to first and 99% of the time the cause of these issues is down to incorrectly tightened and torqued.

QUOTE
the reason I say this is, i repaired a mini that had a failed wheel bearing and it needed a new CV joint, new bearings, new taper washer new hub nut, but no matter how you fitted the parts, there was still slack in the bearing.
QUOTE

Do you still have the hub that would not tighten up correctly ? I would be very interested in seeing it

QUOTE
I was under the impression the timken taper roller bearings are a catalogue item, nothing special?
QUOTE

The bearings are readily available, however what is not is the gauged spacer, this part is all measured using very high tolerance machinery to get a kit of parts that all works correctly together.


QUOTE
Also if the spacer prevents you from over tightening the bearing, does than not mean the there needs to be another method used to determine correct pre load of the bearing itself? remembering what I am trying to say about wear in the hub. if there is wear in the hub, you can tighten the nut as much as you want, but you generate no pre load on the bearings what so ever, and it is this that leads to rapid failures. Basicaly you are suggesting that the hub itself is a high tollerence machined part so that when correct pre load is applied to the wheel bearing it results in the spacer and inner races all bottoming out on each other?
QUOTE

Due to very high tolerancing within the system, the preload is set by the torque on the nut

QUOTE
Not having a go mate, its just how I understand it
QUOTE

I wasn't thinking that you where having a go

I know what it's like to spend money on parts only to find out that your hard earned cash is straight down the drain I endeavour to help people to keep there Minis on the road, th emore Mini's the better.....

Over the years I have heard so many people saying I am getting rid of my Mini cause its always breaking down ! when the correct maintenance and care would aleviate most of these issues.......

Edited by mra-minis.co.uk, 23 April 2009 - 04:28 PM.

[Rustic's missus]

Ok. Well there is no damage to my c v Joint, i have basically removed the hub and inside, the two bearings show one is working fantastic at the front of the hub, spacer is sttill in place but the reaer bearing seems to be ceased up and this is what has caused the failing. When we took the wheel off, first thing we noticed was the hub nut was loose, it still had the split pin in. What does this mean, one bearing inside the hub is ceased and the hub nut was loose?? but luckily the cv is not damaged.



chloe

[minidaves]

well i love posts like this.

1 timken bearings are great dont get me wrong, but with 13" wheels wear rate is higher due to the load that is applied to them, and tobe honest not sure how good the hubs are on late minis, so u may need to modify spacer washer to get the correct preload on the bearing.

ball bearing type replacement well 1stly metro turbos used these along with other metros, and all minis with drum brakes as well as 998 cooper. the benifits of using these over timken is the bearing load is better suited to 13" wheels, the 2 piece assembly means no spacer to get jamed on the cv joint when it wears, life span well i have customers that have done 50,000 miles on these on sportspacks with no issues and they always come apart when i need to adjust ball joints. it also means if the cv joint is slighty damaged/worn you can reuse it saving money.

so timken bearings are the best, but the failure rate i keep hearing means I will only fit gen timkin bearings or rhp drum brake/metro ones. chineese bearings are avoided

dave

[DaveRob]

When we took the wheel off, first thing we noticed was the hub nut was loose, it still had the split pin in

Ahhhhhhh........ now we are getting somewhere..... this is not right..... Ill wait for MRA to chip in with solution or suggestion now.

Rob

[MRA]

Ok. Well there is no damage to my c v Joint, i have basically removed the hub and inside, the two bearings show one is working fantastic at the front of the hub, spacer is sttill in place but the reaer bearing seems to be ceased up and this is what has caused the failing. When we took the wheel off, first thing we noticed was the hub nut was loose, it still had the split pin in. What does this mean, one bearing inside the hub is ceased and the hub nut was loose?? but luckily the cv is not damaged.



chloe

This is exactly the type of failure that I would expect to see on a hub assy that has not been tightened up using a flat washer.,..