66 replies to this topic

[Deathrow]

PC fans are designed to circulate the air in a PC case, we all know how big a PC is and we all know how big the inside of a mini is. I'm not sure what you mean about the blower fans, do you mean the ones on higher end graphics cards?

Very true, that's what PC fans are designed to do.

Now ask yourself this, do you think the heater in a Mini will circulate the air around the cabin? And would you even want it to? I don't know about you, if my feet are cold, I don't want to turn the heater on and feel like I'm riding a motorcycle, just because I've turned the heater on :|.

I believe all it depends on is effectively creating a small posotive pressure in the cabin (by blowing air in to it from outside) and then the air escapes as of its own accord.

These are not quiet however they may suit your purpose:

http://www.overclock.......57&subcat=4

Here is a video of one:

*Cough*

190CFM

A pair of those would trash the performance of a standard Mini heater.

Edited by Deathrow, 23 December 2009 - 03:59 AM.

[markaboot]

something along the line of this?



but on a serious note, i would have thought something like this would be a good choice.
maybe a couple mounted under your dash and one on the rear shelf?



EDIT:just had a quick look on ebay at those prices i'd put 3 in the front and 2 in the rear!

Edited by markaboot, 23 December 2009 - 12:08 PM.

[cobblers]

Those ebay blowers really aren't very powerful at all. I've had a few.

I can vouch for those delta 120mm fans being about twice as powerful as the mini heater fan. You can even get small radiators designed for watercooling a PC that bolt directly onto one of those fan, which you could use as a heater matrix.


Might be a bit small, but they do larger ones.

[Ethel]

We're all sitting in buildings full of copper pipe that's been there for years so I don't think there's much of a corrosion issue. Copper rads fail where they are soldered to steel frames or get grit blasted with road salt. Heat transfer depends on surface area, temperature gradient & conductivity. Size matters (phnar no2)

[Deathrow]

We're all sitting in buildings full of copper pipe that's been there for years so I don't think there's much of a corrosion issue.

I was thinking that myself but didn't want to put it out there to be shot down hehe.

When you're designing a watercooling loop for a computer it's good practice to try and keep all the components copper to reduce corrosion. Naturally, in an a-series build, you're stuck with the cast iron block so I wouldn't worry too much about this.

Cobblers is very correct, those radiators will accept a 120mm fan bolted straight to them. I have a 120x2 (2 120mm fan) radiator in the top of my computer atm. However, for the cost of the radiator (because it's specialist equipment) you'd be better just mounting it to the standard heater matrix.

http://i36.photobuck...9/berth2o02.jpg

http://i36.photobuck...9/berth2o01.jpg

That's a very old picture, the hardware has changed loads since then and it will be doing so again shortly, but you can see the radiator grill on the top for size.

Just on observation. The two fans I have blowing through my radiator are very quiet, they run at about 1000rpm I believe, and even they are kicking out more than the heater does in my Mini.

Edited by Deathrow, 23 December 2009 - 06:52 PM.

[drummerian]

thanks for all the replies guys. This is starting to sounds feasible idea once we string a bit more knowledge together to produce somthing decent!

keep the ideas flowing!

[Trail of Dead]

PC fans will definatly not be enough

This depends on what type and size of PC fans you use. You could say that about standard "fan blade" styled fans but I would seriously say that a "blower" type fan for a PC would work well. Also another thing to consider when looking for a good PC fan would be type of bearing used, RPM's attained and finally CFM of air that the fan can move. How do I know....I am a PC Tech!!!! I work on them for a living and deal with these types of things all the time. In fact I posted a thread on this awhile back. I plan on building a nice little Aluminum box to house a smaller heater core that is also made of Aluminum.

Some have said this is crazy talk to be going with a smaller heater core....personally I feel size doesn't make a bit of difference in this case. Copper corrodes and will eventually leak, most likely all over your nice carpets! Aluminum won't and it has a great heat dissipating ability as we all know. I was looking at one from a newer Corvette as a possible candidate. Another thing regarding heater core size, in my case I will be running a C20XE so I can safely say it would produce some HEAT! But back on topic.....the right type of PC fan used can work very well. If you're worried about the plastic casing of the fan potentially melting than buy a metal PC fan. Hope this helps! As soon as I get further with my Mini I will be posting a build thread of my custom heater!

PC fans are designed to circulate the air in a PC case, we all know how big a PC is and we all know how big the inside of a mini is. I'm not sure what you mean about the blower fans, do you mean the ones on higher end graphics cards?

I was referring to one of these type of fans...blower fans are the type that are used in heaters. I have an old one from a VW but I would rather use a nice big PC blower fan since it would be quieter and I can use a fan controller to adjust the speed on the fly...plus I could get one that lights up for that geekyness in me! Lol!



I wanted to add that yes...PC fans are designed to move air IN a PC case but they do a really good job of pulling the outside air in the case. Should do an equally good job of being an "extractor" fan for the heat coming from the heater core. I would have a fan ON the heater core much like people put electric fans on their radiators. My fan would be blowing the heat from the core filling the inside of the heater "box" with heat. Then use a good, strong blower fan to push that heat into the car. I am going to experiment with this sometime this summer when my I've got time to get at some aluminum plate with a dremel. Once I fab the box and find the right heater core I'll do some testing with various types/brands/sizes of fans. I am optimistic of the outcome.

Edited by Trail of Dead, 24 December 2009 - 06:24 PM.

[drummerian]

PC fans will definatly not be enough

This depends on what type and size of PC fans you use. You could say that about standard "fan blade" styled fans but I would seriously say that a "blower" type fan for a PC would work well. Also another thing to consider when looking for a good PC fan would be type of bearing used, RPM's attained and finally CFM of air that the fan can move. How do I know....I am a PC Tech!!!! I work on them for a living and deal with these types of things all the time. In fact I posted a thread on this awhile back. I plan on building a nice little Aluminum box to house a smaller heater core that is also made of Aluminum.

Some have said this is crazy talk to be going with a smaller heater core....personally I feel size doesn't make a bit of difference in this case. Copper corrodes and will eventually leak, most likely all over your nice carpets! Aluminum won't and it has a great heat dissipating ability as we all know. I was looking at one from a newer Corvette as a possible candidate. Another thing regarding heater core size, in my case I will be running a C20XE so I can safely say it would produce some HEAT! But back on topic.....the right type of PC fan used can work very well. If you're worried about the plastic casing of the fan potentially melting than buy a metal PC fan. Hope this helps! As soon as I get further with my Mini I will be posting a build thread of my custom heater!

PC fans are designed to circulate the air in a PC case, we all know how big a PC is and we all know how big the inside of a mini is. I'm not sure what you mean about the blower fans, do you mean the ones on higher end graphics cards?

I was referring to one of these type of fans...blower fans are the type that are used in heaters. I have an old one from a VW but I would rather use a nice big PC blower fan since it would be quieter and I can use a fan controller to adjust the speed on the fly...plus I could get one that lights up for that geekyness in me! Lol!

how do these types of fans compare to the one already in the mini then?

Edited by drummerian, 24 December 2009 - 06:54 PM.

[Trail of Dead]

We're all sitting in buildings full of copper pipe that's been there for years so I don't think there's much of a corrosion issue. Copper rads fail where they are soldered to steel frames or get grit blasted with road salt. Heat transfer depends on surface area, temperature gradient & conductivity. Size matters (phnar no2)

My Dad used to have a 1990 Ford Escort LX that went through 3 heater cores (all copper) in 9 years. This was mainly due to contaminants, debris, calcium deposits that overtime built up in the radiator. Lets also not forget that copper corrodes when in contact with water....another element that is present in our cooling system. Look at the statue of Liberty, corrosion IS an issue. Copper does have better thermal dissipation properties than Aluminum but Aluminum lacks the corrosion issue of Copper and it dissipates heat very well too. Not only that but if your a weight junkie then an Aluminum core would weigh less.

The size of the core only matters if your able to utilize it. For example if you have a heater core the size of the radiator in your mini, you would have to have a source of heat that can heat it up fast. What do you think would heat a car up faster? A BIG heater core made of copper or a smaller heater core made up of aluminum? Lets take stars for reference. Lets say that hypothetically our Sun is the same temp as Betelgeuse (the biggest star in the constellation Orion...it would be Orion's left elbow as you are looking at him). Betelgeuse is MUCH, MUCH bigger than our Sun, so which one reached max temp faster? My money is on our Sun.

Now lets say a smaller heater core reaches a good toasty temp but a bigger heater core can get hotter in a longer time frame. Which one makes more sense? A bigger core that can reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit (about 48.8 degrees Celsius) or a smaller core that can reach 85 degrees Fahrenheit (about 29.4 degrees Celsius) in less time? I'd rather have the smaller core as I'd want to get toasty faster.

The engine you run makes a difference in this too. I'm sure a Chevy 350ci (5.7L) V8 can attain a higher operating temp faster than a standard 998cc A-Series engine. I would wager that a 1275 gets hotter faster than a 998 too. Obviously this all has to do with how big the combustion chambers/cylinders are which in turn determine how much fuel is going to get compressed then ignited during the "Squeeze" and "Bang" cycles. If you've got a more fuel/air then it's going to get hotter, faster. When I owned an older Chevy S-10 I was going to do a 350/400 small block V8 swap in it from the standard 4 banger. All my friends told me I should remove the heater as I wouldn't need it. The engine was so big and so close to the firewall not to mention the cab was so small that engine heat alone would warm it up inside. It would have made for a warm ride in the summer too.

Edited by Trail of Dead, 24 December 2009 - 06:50 PM.

[drummerian]

post above modified, tags were on the wrong places!

[Trail of Dead]

PC fans will definatly not be enough

This depends on what type and size of PC fans you use. You could say that about standard "fan blade" styled fans but I would seriously say that a "blower" type fan for a PC would work well. Also another thing to consider when looking for a good PC fan would be type of bearing used, RPM's attained and finally CFM of air that the fan can move. How do I know....I am a PC Tech!!!! I work on them for a living and deal with these types of things all the time. In fact I posted a thread on this awhile back. I plan on building a nice little Aluminum box to house a smaller heater core that is also made of Aluminum.

Some have said this is crazy talk to be going with a smaller heater core....personally I feel size doesn't make a bit of difference in this case. Copper corrodes and will eventually leak, most likely all over your nice carpets! Aluminum won't and it has a great heat dissipating ability as we all know. I was looking at one from a newer Corvette as a possible candidate. Another thing regarding heater core size, in my case I will be running a C20XE so I can safely say it would produce some HEAT! But back on topic.....the right type of PC fan used can work very well. If you're worried about the plastic casing of the fan potentially melting than buy a metal PC fan. Hope this helps! As soon as I get further with my Mini I will be posting a build thread of my custom heater!

PC fans are designed to circulate the air in a PC case, we all know how big a PC is and we all know how big the inside of a mini is. I'm not sure what you mean about the blower fans, do you mean the ones on higher end graphics cards?

I was referring to one of these type of fans...blower fans are the type that are used in heaters. I have an old one from a VW but I would rather use a nice big PC blower fan since it would be quieter and I can use a fan controller to adjust the speed on the fly...plus I could get one that lights up for that geekyness in me! Lol!

how do these types of fans compare to the one already in the mini then?

To be honest I have yet to yank my heater out to investigate. But I would imagine bearing type, size, and RPM would differ. I'll know more once I can look at the fan from the Mini heater and whatever fan I'll be using for my custom heater. My Dad gave me this OLD "Pamotor" fan years ago, it's about 35 years old but it is twice the size of a 120mm PC fan and can spin up to 35,000RPM...it's all metal too. He told me they used it in the boilermaker shop where he used to work. It was mounted in a frame that held dozens of them, they were used to extract the smoke from the stick welders and the heat from the steel mill. I'll dig it out and post a picture of it. I got the tip of my finger smacked by it years ago....it left my fingertip bruised in a split second. I was using it to cool my Pioneer Home AV amp as it was pushing two Orion XTR 15's. I was looking on the back of the receiver and didn't pay attention to where my finger was going and ZZZZIIIIPPPP! OUCH! It would seriously move LOTS of air.

[SolarB]

'Fraid I'm going to have to dissagree with Trail of the Dead.

Lets also not forget that copper corrodes when in contact with water....another element that is present in our cooling system. Look at the statue of Liberty, corrosion IS an issue. Copper does have better thermal dissipation properties than Aluminum but Aluminum lacks the corrosion issue of Copper and it dissipates heat very well too. Not only that but if your a weight junkie then an Aluminum core would weigh less.

Aluminium also corrodes. Look at any of the aircraft on your base, they all have corrosion protection on their aluminium components.

The size of the core only matters if your able to utilize it. For example if you have a heater core the size of the radiator in your mini, you would have to have a source of heat that can heat it up fast. What do you think would heat a car up faster? A BIG heater core made of copper or a smaller heater core made up of aluminum?

The bigger heater made of copper. Radiators are specified in power dissipation for a given surface area (watts/cm² etc). A larger heater will dissipate more heat and this is why bigger engines have larger radiators than smaller engines. Small and large heater cores will heat up in a very similar time as there's really very little difference in their capacity compared to the volume of coolant in the whole system. It's possible to have a core that's concidered too large and can radiate more heat than you'll ever need, and it's possible to have a core that's too small and cannot radiate enough heat.

Lets take stars for reference. Lets say that hypothetically our Sun is the same temp as Betelgeuse (the biggest star in the constellation Orion...it would be Orion's left elbow as you are looking at him). Betelgeuse is MUCH, MUCH bigger than our Sun, so which one reached max temp faster? My money is on our Sun.

Not sure what you're drinking but I'll have a pint.

Now lets say a smaller heater core reaches a good toasty temp but a bigger heater core can get hotter in a longer time frame. Which one makes more sense? A bigger core that can reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit (about 48.8 degrees Celsius) or a smaller core that can reach 85 degrees Fahrenheit (about 29.4 degrees Celsius) in less time? I'd rather have the smaller core as I'd want to get toasty faster.

And I'll have the bigger heater. But how can the heaters will reach different temperatures if both are being supplied with water at (say) 85^oC?.

The engine you run makes a difference in this too. I'm sure a Chevy 350ci (5.7L) V8 can attain a higher operating temp faster than a standard 998cc A-Series engine. I would wager that a 1275 gets hotter faster than a 998 too. Obviously this all has to do with how big the combustion chambers/cylinders are which in turn determine how much fuel is going to get compressed then ignited during the "Squeeze" and "Bang" cycles. If you've got a more fuel/air then it's going to get hotter, faster.

I'll agree with you here.

[Trail of Dead]

'Fraid I'm going to have to dissagree with Trail of the Dead.

Lets also not forget that copper corrodes when in contact with water....another element that is present in our cooling system. Look at the statue of Liberty, corrosion IS an issue. Copper does have better thermal dissipation properties than Aluminum but Aluminum lacks the corrosion issue of Copper and it dissipates heat very well too. Not only that but if your a weight junkie then an Aluminum core would weigh less.

Aluminium also corrodes. Look at any of the aircraft on your base, they all have corrosion protection on their aluminium components.

The size of the core only matters if your able to utilize it. For example if you have a heater core the size of the radiator in your mini, you would have to have a source of heat that can heat it up fast. What do you think would heat a car up faster? A BIG heater core made of copper or a smaller heater core made up of aluminum?

The bigger heater made of copper. Radiators are specified in power dissipation for a given surface area (watts/cm² etc). A larger heater will dissipate more heat and this is why bigger engines have larger radiators than smaller engines. Small and large heater cores will heat up in a very similar time as there's really very little difference in their capacity compared to the volume of coolant in the whole system. It's possible to have a core that's concidered too large and can radiate more heat than you'll ever need, and it's possible to have a core that's too small and cannot radiate enough heat.

Lets take stars for reference. Lets say that hypothetically our Sun is the same temp as Betelgeuse (the biggest star in the constellation Orion...it would be Orion's left elbow as you are looking at him). Betelgeuse is MUCH, MUCH bigger than our Sun, so which one reached max temp faster? My money is on our Sun.

Not sure what you're drinking but I'll have a pint.

Now lets say a smaller heater core reaches a good toasty temp but a bigger heater core can get hotter in a longer time frame. Which one makes more sense? A bigger core that can reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit (about 48.8 degrees Celsius) or a smaller core that can reach 85 degrees Fahrenheit (about 29.4 degrees Celsius) in less time? I'd rather have the smaller core as I'd want to get toasty faster.

And I'll have the bigger heater. But how can the heaters will reach different temperatures if both are being supplied with water at (say) 85^oC?.

The engine you run makes a difference in this too. I'm sure a Chevy 350ci (5.7L) V8 can attain a higher operating temp faster than a standard 998cc A-Series engine. I would wager that a 1275 gets hotter faster than a 998 too. Obviously this all has to do with how big the combustion chambers/cylinders are which in turn determine how much fuel is going to get compressed then ignited during the "Squeeze" and "Bang" cycles. If you've got a more fuel/air then it's going to get hotter, faster.

I'll agree with you here.

Lol! Here mate! Have a pint!!!


My wife (Staff Sergeant) works DIRECTLY on the flightline with the KC-135s and the Pilots. She is always interacting with the planes in various ways. Her brother (Tech Sergeant) is a mechanic on the C-130s and a few others. Both of them agree that while there is a corrosion protection sprayed on the aircraft the Aluminum of the aircraft isn't the reason for it. I was an M1A1 Abrams Tank Turret Mechanic for 3 years in the US Army so I know a thing or two about a thing or two. I worked on $6.5 Billion tanks for a living (that is priced each). The Tank was made of Depleted Uranium, Steel, and some Aluminum. It was also treated but only for the steel. Let me be completely accurate....YES Aluminum corrodes, but not the same as copper. Aluminum corrodes at a very slow rate. Aluminum does NOT rust or rot.

Regarding the size of heater cores. Think about it. A bigger heater core is going to take longer to fill up as it has more rows to fill with hot coolant from the engine. This was also why I used the "Star Analogy". It's no different than if you cook an egg on a thick cast iron frying pan or a thin teflon coated flimsy steel pan. The cast iron pan is going to heat up slower but cook the egg better, the other pan will heat up faster. I'm still going to stick with a smaller heater core, once I can build mine I will test it and report the results.

Regarding why bigger engines need bigger radiators. You are right in that a bigger radiator will dissipate more heat but that isn't what is needed in a teeny tiny little mini shell. A Mini is no bigger than the cab of a full size Dodge Ram, so heating it isn't the issue (although the stock heater on my '82 Mini is crap at heating). The issue is the way the stock heater cores rot/leak and the lack of heat output. Maybe if we all drove 1978 Cadillac Eldorados we would need a bigger heater core but we aren't. We drive Minis. A Zippo lighter full of fluid could practically heat the car. In fact the old timers used to use paraffin stoves to heat the inside of their cars. This is why I am sticking to my guns when it comes to a thicker yet smaller (overall) Aluminum heater core inside of a nice, sealed Aluminum box with some good fans to blow the heat around the inside of the car.

[benb12]

I'm only an A-level chemist but I would have said that aluminium corroded more than copper in water. Hence why the copper heater in my 33 year old Mini wasn't corroded at all, and the aluminium mirrors on my dad's 15 year old beemer were completely corroded.

[Trail of Dead]

I'm only an A-level chemist but I would have said that aluminium corroded more than copper in water. Hence why the copper heater in my 33 year old Mini wasn't corroded at all, and the aluminium mirrors on my dad's 15 year old beemer were completely corroded.

Excerpt snipped from Wiki....sorry for the font being so small, but it is still readable.

I think Aluminum starts corroding easier when in the presence of different metals. I think this is called Electrolysis.

Edited by Trail of Dead, 25 December 2009 - 05:18 PM.