63 replies to this topic

[Juju]

The classic mini London-to-Brighton run is in no danger of dying out anytime soon. There are a couple of thousand descending on that poor little town every year & the popularity of other veteran car L2B events remains strong, so the excuse of including BMW minis in the run to sustain its life just does not hold water. It is a money-making exercise, pure & simple.

BMW minis are decent cars & they have their place, but seeing a BMW Countryman on the same "single marque" run as a mini minor is a ridiculous juxtaposition.

[mab01uk]

I noticed Paddy Hopkirk was parked on Madeira Drive in his new MINI Countryman with its 33 'EJB' personal numberplate as previously fitted on his Clubman.

[Juju]

I noticed Paddy Hopkirk was parked on Madeira Drive in his new MINI Countryman with its 33 'EJB' personal numberplate as previously fitted on his Clubman.

I'm sure BMW are paying him handsomely for his endorsement!

[AVV IT]

I'm gonna get in here early before it all turns ugly and this thread gets closed! Yes I agree the guys stood around the Bini section on Madeira Drive certainly looked different from the average classic mini owner! But then they are modified modern car enthusiasts after all, so they are much more likely to be the stereotypical single males in their twenties, who are into cruising, big ICE systems, ridiculously low profile tyres and reading fast car magazine.

Owning any modern classic is about restoration, preservation and getting your hands dirty, where as modifying a modern car is about making yours faster and lower than the next guys, it really is two completely different pass times so there's little wonder that it appeals to two very different types of people.

A large section of the classic Mini scene today and in the past has always been "about making yours faster and lower than the next guys" all part of what has made up the wide variety of interest at Mini shows.......I was driving in a standard restored 1960 Austin Se7en yesterday and was passed frequently on route by plenty of classic Mini's driven by "stereotypical single males in their twenties, with big ICE systems, ridiculously wide 7 x 13" wheels and quite low profile tyres! Not really my scene anymore and a different type of 'people' as you put it maybe, but live and let live and a friendly united Mini/MINI scene is without doubt still the best way forward for the future. I also like to look at Honda Vtec Mini's as much as a factory concours early Mk1 Mini Minor 850 but I would not define a modern Vtec Mini conversion as either restoration or preservation or want them banned from the shows because of that.
Neither did I want the re-introduced Rover Mini Coopers banned from shows back in the early 1990's because they were brand new 'showroom' fresh cars, although many so called early Mini enthusiasts at the time thought they had no place in either shows or concours and were very rude to their owners!

In the modern MINI scene I know of older owners who have had classics in the past, others who like me have both classic and new, younger owners with their first car both male and female, hands-on MINI owners who like radical tuning and modifying, track days, etc, in fact the whole range of enthusiasts pretty much similar in make-up to a typical cross-section of classic owners. It should also be remembered that the entry level price of the early MINI One's and Coopers and even some Cooper S is now less than a similar age good rust free classic Mini MPI or well looked after earlier classic Mini, so like it or not MINI's will become the way many younger drivers starting out get first introduced to the Mini show scene in future years.......and hopefully some will go on to develop an interest in classics after meeting all their friendly welcoming owners!

I think that you are misunderstanding the point I was trying to make. Yes of course there is the stereotypical element boy racer element within the classic mini scene, but it is just that "an element" and not teh majority. My point is that modified modern car enthusiasts like those in the Bini section at L2B are far more likely to be that element. That is true of all modified modern car enthusiasts not just Bini ones, that doesn't mean that the majority of Bini owners conform to that stereotype but then the majority of Bini owners are not modified car enthusiasts either.

Also I was not trying to define the classic mini scene as an exclusive classic car preservation and restoration scene in the purist sense. I simply meant that any classic mini due to its age and design will always need restoring and preserving to keep it alive, not just a case of having its headlights swapped over the ECU chipped and the suspension slammed! So in that sense yes, I would certainly define a Classic mini V-Tec conversion as both a restoration and preservation.

You are quite clearly one of the classic mini owners who has also migrated into Bini ownership and it may surprise you to learn that I have also migrated into a Bini ownership in the past too. I do understand that you want to have both your cars accepted in the mini scene and from all your previous posts on the subject you will clearly defend Bini ownership to the last. But I'm not advocating being rude and non accepting of Bini owners at Mini shows, I just do not genuinely think that the majority of Bini enthusiasts are interested in the classic Mini, in the same way that I do not think that the majority of Classic Mini owners are really very interested in the Bini either. I too have owned a Bini, but I'm really not that interested in looking at a modified one at a show and I'm even less interested in looking at a standard one that I could see in a BMW showroom or in any supermarket car park.

This why I made the suggestion that classic Mini events would be more suited to team up with other modern classic enthusiasts like Fords or VW's. I think that its more likely that Classic Mini owners would be far more interested in looking at a restored or modified VW camper or MKII escort, than any sort of Bini and likewise surely most Bini Enthusiasts would be far more interested in looking at a slammed Clio on low profile tyres than a well looked after 1988 Mini city.


That is all!!

[ScottieDoo]

I'll do my best to stay well clear of this debate, as we'll all agree it's endless.
All I will say is my biggest joy during the L2B was when I joined the A23 from Dorking, to be met my thousands of classics mini's, each member with a smile on their face. Don't think I would of had the same feeling if I was met by a thousand Bini's! Lol.

And I truly enjoy speaking to other mini owners, to discuss what they've done to their car, and if they can give me some advice on mine.
I'm not sure I could hold the same conversation with a Bini owner as modifying their car would be very very different.

Just my thoughts.

[The_Mistro]

I noticed Paddy Hopkirk was parked on Madeira Drive in his new MINI Countryman with its 33 'EJB' personal numberplate as previously fitted on his Clubman.

I'm sure BMW are paying him handsomely for his endorsement!

cant see a comeback to that one!

only thing in common classic owners have with modern enthusiasts is that we are both enthusiastic about cars! but that is where it ends! we dont appreciate the same styles or tastes, owning a classic isnt just about driving it, its about the TLC the car needs, the wet weekends on the drive changing sparks or fan belts, topping it up with oil and water! What i have found with most BINIs, Beetles and 500s, the owners are trying to be retro, because retro is "cool"

also seems modern cars are about taking it to the garage to have big 22's put on with low profile tyres, maybe some lowering springs, stupid amount of camber and then driving back out just to go crusing!

dont get me wrong, not all of it is about this, the jap scene is interesting, but a lot of the jap scene is about drifting now, having a car modded so it can drift, for a purpose!

Edited by The_Mistro, 17 May 2011 - 01:11 PM.

[Scallywag630]

I'm gonna get in here early before it all turns ugly and this thread gets closed! Yes I agree the guys stood around the Bini section on Madeira Drive certainly looked different from the average classic mini owner! But then they are modified modern car enthusiasts after all, so they are much more likely to be the stereotypical single males in their twenties, who are into cruising, big ICE systems, ridiculously low profile tyres and reading fast car magazine.

Owning any modern classic is about restoration, preservation and getting your hands dirty, where as modifying a modern car is about making yours faster and lower than the next guys, it really is two completely different pass times so there's little wonder that it appeals to two very different types of people.

A large section of the classic Mini scene today and in the past has always been "about making yours faster and lower than the next guys" all part of what has made up the wide variety of interest at Mini shows.......I was driving in a standard restored 1960 Austin Se7en yesterday and was passed frequently on route by plenty of classic Mini's driven by "stereotypical single males in their twenties, with big ICE systems, ridiculously wide 7 x 13" wheels and quite low profile tyres! Not really my scene anymore and a different type of 'people' as you put it maybe, but live and let live and a friendly united Mini/MINI scene is without doubt still the best way forward for the future. I also like to look at Honda Vtec Mini's as much as a factory concours early Mk1 Mini Minor 850 but I would not define a modern Vtec Mini conversion as either restoration or preservation or want them banned from the shows because of that.
Neither did I want the re-introduced Rover Mini Coopers banned from shows back in the early 1990's because they were brand new 'showroom' fresh cars, although many so called early Mini enthusiasts at the time thought they had no place in either shows or concours and were very rude to their owners!

In the modern MINI scene I know of older owners who have had classics in the past, others who like me have both classic and new, younger owners with their first car both male and female, hands-on MINI owners who like radical tuning and modifying, track days, etc, in fact the whole range of enthusiasts pretty much similar in make-up to a typical cross-section of classic owners. It should also be remembered that the entry level price of the early MINI One's and Coopers and even some Cooper S is now less than a similar age good rust free classic Mini MPI or well looked after earlier classic Mini, so like it or not MINI's will become the way many younger drivers starting out get first introduced to the Mini show scene in future years.......and hopefully some will go on to develop an interest in classics after meeting all their friendly welcoming owners!

I think that you are misunderstanding the point I was trying to make. Yes of course there is the stereotypical element boy racer element within the classic mini scene, but it is just that "an element" and not teh majority. My point is that modified modern car enthusiasts like those in the Bini section at L2B are far more likely to be that element. That is true of all modified modern car enthusiasts not just Bini ones, that doesn't mean that the majority of Bini owners conform to that stereotype but then the majority of Bini owners are not modified car enthusiasts either.

Also I was not trying to define the classic mini scene as an exclusive classic car preservation and restoration scene in the purist sense. I simply meant that any classic mini due to its age and design will always need restoring and preserving to keep it alive, not just a case of having its headlights swapped over the ECU chipped and the suspension slammed! So in that sense yes, I would certainly define a Classic mini V-Tec conversion as both a restoration and preservation.

You are quite clearly one of the classic mini owners who has also migrated into Bini ownership and it may surprise you to learn that I have also migrated into a Bini ownership in the past too. I do understand that you want to have both your cars accepted in the mini scene and from all your previous posts on the subject you will clearly defend Bini ownership to the last. But I'm not advocating being rude and non accepting of Bini owners at Mini shows, I just do not genuinely think that the majority of Bini enthusiasts are interested in the classic Mini, in the same way that I do not think that the majority of Classic Mini owners are really very interested in the Bini either. I too have owned a Bini, but I'm really not that interested in looking at a modified one at a show and I'm even less interested in looking at a standard one that I could see in a BMW showroom or in any supermarket car park.

This why I made the suggestion that classic Mini events would be more suited to team up with other modern classic enthusiasts like Fords or VW's. I think that its more likely that Classic Mini owners would be far more interested in looking at a restored or modified VW camper or MKII escort, than any sort of Bini and likewise surely most Bini Enthusiasts would be far more interested in looking at a slammed Clio on low profile tyres than a well looked after 1988 Mini city.


That is all!!

Very well put, totally agree.

[GoonerMini]

s we would be far better teaming up with other classic car groups like VW or Classic Ford owners, at least that way we would have something more than just a car name in common!!

I agree with this so much, i am also part of a classic ford club and those guys are so similar to mini owners and just as much fun, that would be my perfect show where mini's and the likes of cosworth's come together to be social. May be we should organise something?

Rich

Bromley Pageant, Enfield Pageant, Isle of Wight Classic Car Show, Battlesbridge Motorobilia are several that our club attends

[Realminiman]

I noticed Paddy Hopkirk was parked on Madeira Drive in his new MINI Countryman with its 33 'EJB' personal numberplate as previously fitted on his Clubman.

ohh yuk! they are the worst incarnation, how they ended up showing the mini name is scandelous

[mab01uk]

s we would be far better teaming up with other classic car groups like VW or Classic Ford owners, at least that way we would have something more than just a car name in common!!

I agree with this so much, i am also part of a classic ford club and those guys are so similar to mini owners and just as much fun, that would be my perfect show where mini's and the likes of cosworth's come together to be social. May be we should organise something?

Rich

Bromley Pageant, Enfield Pageant, Isle of Wight Classic Car Show, Battlesbridge Motorobilia are several that our club attends

As pointed out above if anyone wants a varied/mixed classic car type of show there are many good ones already out there to attend.........but Mini shows are for Mini's of all kinds both old and new and most established clubs like the MCR and BMC and the major show organisers for L to B, Beaulieu, Himley, MITP, etc know they need to attract both camps to ensure a viable long term future at the bigger venues we are now used too. Many of the daily driver 1980/90's Mini's that I saw at the far end of Madeira Drive on Sunday will typically be in need of some serious cash spending on restoration in the very near future but sadly I fear only a few will actually make it through the next 10 years.........over that same period of time, as the MINI heads towards its 20 year anniversary the increasing numbers of MINI enthusiasts can only help bring in new interest and keep shows at similar levels without any threat to the original but inevitably smaller by then classic Mini scene. Maybe if TMF is still around in 10 years time we can all check back here and it will be interesting to see what actually happened!

Edited by mab01uk, 17 May 2011 - 10:34 PM.

[Realminiman]

s we would be far better teaming up with other classic car groups like VW or Classic Ford owners, at least that way we would have something more than just a car name in common!!

I agree with this so much, i am also part of a classic ford club and those guys are so similar to mini owners and just as much fun, that would be my perfect show where mini's and the likes of cosworth's come together to be social. May be we should organise something?

Rich

Bromley Pageant, Enfield Pageant, Isle of Wight Classic Car Show, Battlesbridge Motorobilia are several that our club attends

As pointed out above if anyone wants a varied/mixed classic car type of show there are many good ones already out there to attend.........but Mini shows are for Mini's of all kinds both old and new and most established clubs like the MCR and BMC and the major show organisers for L to B, Beaulieu, Himley, MITP, etc know they need to attract both camps to ensure a viable long term future at the bigger venues we are now used too. Many of the daily driver 1980/90's Mini's that I saw at the far end of Madeira Drive on Sunday will typically be in need of some serious cash spending on restoration in the very near future but sadly I fear only a few will actually make it through the next 10 years.........over that same period of time, as the MINI heads towards its 20 year anniversary the increasing numbers of MINI enthusiasts can only help bring in new interest and keep shows at similar levels without any threat to the original but inevitably smaller by then classic Mini scene. Maybe if TMF is still around in 10 years time we can check back here and it will be interesting to see what actually happened!

hopefully they will have their own bmw show by then! amen

[mab01uk]

hopefully they will have their own bmw show by then! amen

Already do..........but classic Mini's are also very welcome!

"New MINI Show 2011 will be taking place on 2nd October at the ACC Liverpool (Echo Arena), Liverpool waterfront.
After a great 2010 show, we have a brand new venue right on Liverpools world famous waterfront."
http://www.newminish..._Mini_Show.html

[JoneseyBoy]

s we would be far better teaming up with other classic car groups like VW or Classic Ford owners, at least that way we would have something more than just a car name in common!!

I agree with this so much, i am also part of a classic ford club and those guys are so similar to mini owners and just as much fun, that would be my perfect show where mini's and the likes of cosworth's come together to be social. May be we should organise something?

Rich

Bromley Pageant, Enfield Pageant, Isle of Wight Classic Car Show, Battlesbridge Motorobilia are several that our club attends

As pointed out above if anyone wants a varied/mixed classic car type of show there are many good ones already out there to attend.........but Mini shows are for Mini's of all kinds both old and new and most established clubs like the MCR and BMC and the major show organisers for L to B, Beaulieu, Himley, MITP, etc know they need to attract both camps to ensure a viable long term future at the bigger venues we are now used too. Many of the daily driver 1980/90's Mini's that I saw at the far end of Madeira Drive on Sunday will typically be in need of some serious cash spending on restoration in the very near future but sadly I fear only a few will actually make it through the next 10 years.........over that same period of time, as the MINI heads towards its 20 year anniversary the increasing numbers of MINI enthusiasts can only help bring in new interest and keep shows at similar levels without any threat to the original but inevitably smaller by then classic Mini scene. Maybe if TMF is still around in 10 years time we can check back here and it will be interesting to see what actually happened!

but when it dies down abit it wil be even more exciting to see a rarer car. we could say the same thing about binis in 10 years time most will need a new engine due to excessive miles on the clock and probly be a new model out so they will also die. i have nothing againts bini but its certianly never going to take over the classic mini scene and i bet classic minis will still be going strong in 10 years time. when i see a bini owner i dont feel i have anything in common but when i see a mini owner i feel like a comunity. i always smile to my self when i see a fellow mini owner drive by as i know i have something in common with them.

[mab01uk]

[but when it dies down abit it wil be even more exciting to see a rarer car. we could say the same thing about binis in 10 years time most will need a new engine due to excessive miles on the clock and probly be a new model out so they will also die. i have nothing againts bini but its certianly never going to take over the classic mini scene and i bet classic minis will still be going strong in 10 years time. when i see a bini owner i dont feel i have anything in common but when i see a mini owner i feel like a comunity. i always smile to my self when i see a fellow mini owner drive by as i know i have something in common with them.

Classic Mini's will certainly be around in 10 years time, but without the constant supply of new replacement 'daily drivers' coming from the factory as previously happened before 2000, the numbers are inevitably going to start shrinking in future years. The growing numbers of MINI enthusiasts will however help subsidise the big event venues we have got used to, like London to Brighton/Crystal Palace, Beaulieu, Santa Pod, etc which are very costly to hire and organise. Remember the show/event organisers need the maximum number of potential entrants and/or visitors through the gate every year to make the numbers add up and continue to be viable financially..................few really think about what has to go on behind the scenes into making these big shows actually happen.

Edited by mab01uk, 18 May 2011 - 07:39 AM.

[liirge]

The classic mini London-to-Brighton run is in no danger of dying out anytime soon. There are a couple of thousand descending on that poor little town every year & the popularity of other veteran car L2B events remains strong, so the excuse of including BMW minis in the run to sustain its life just does not hold water. It is a money-making exercise, pure & simple.

BMW minis are decent cars & they have their place, but seeing a BMW Countryman on the same "single marque" run as a mini minor is a ridiculous juxtaposition.

That is one of the most eloquent responses I have seen on this topic, and on TMF for that matter. I congratulate you on your use of vocabulary to exemplify the incongruous nature of the London to Brighton run, your sentiments are an oft induced maxim I personally hold.