58 replies to this topic

[Guess-Works.com]

For me there is no question, of is it or isn't it... a car is what it says it is on the v5, or if you want further confirmation, a heritage certificate, baring any log book specials...

I think the confusion which cooperman talks about is not what the car is, but its historic value.... sometimes this is more important than a few stamped numbers on a piece of metal....

[surfblue63]

As said earlier, a 'can of worms'!
Now, here is a question. I have a friend who bought an 850 in 1961 which he started rallying. Then the 997 Cooper arrived, so he re-built it as a 997 Cooper with the right bits, engine, brakes, speedo, etc., and rallied it in that form, always entering as a Cooper 997. Later the Cooper 'S' arrived and, as he was sponsored in his motor sport by a major BMC dealer he again re-built it as a 1275 'S' with a new body shell as well - the original was getting a bit tired. He did many International rallies in it with reasonable success in his class.
In the late 70's he took a break from rallying, but kept the car. Now it is restored and he competes in historic rallies entering it as a Cooper 'S' and he has all the FIA/MSA papers. The V5 says it is a Morris Mini with the engine a 1275 cc with a Cooper 'S' engine number.
The question: Is this a Mini Cooper 'S'?

It isn't a Cooper S if the chassis number says it is not. It is a tuned up Mini Minor. If you fit a Lotus engine into a Mk1 Cortina Super, does that make it a Lotus? No it does not.
Unfortunately the Mini scene is becoming tainted by the views of some people that think it is OK for cars to be passed off as something that they are not, and seam quite happy for people to switch identities of body shells for financial gain.

[se_juggles]

The price

[mk1coopers]

If it didn't leave the factory as a Cooper or S with the correct chassis number it will never be one, if the factory or John Cooper changed the car then it could be considered a special build (like the 60's Cooper Car Co Traveller conversions) anything else will be a Mini which has been modified to Cooper or S specifications. I did it myself with my first car a MK3 850, colour change to island blue and white, and a set of reverse rim Cooper wheels, then as insurance and finances allowed, S running gear, Minilites, twin tanks, S speedo, MK2 S interior with the door cards painted black to match ect, 1275 engine with a Slark head and twin inch and a halves ect ect, it was as fast as an S, looked like one, stopped like one, but it was not, and never will be a Cooper S, it was (and still is) a 850 with some nice parts bolted to it.

[CMXCVIII]

It's a very familiar can of worms.

So which of these three is the pukka Mini Cooper?

The Mini Cooper that says Mini Cooper on the V5 but has a Honda or Vauxhall or even a turbocharged A-series engine? Or Cooperman's mate's Mini 850 that has been a rally car since the early 60s and is a pure woodsman's axe with a continuous history? Or the Mini Cooper that was lovingly built up from a collection of brand new parts, all to the right specification, but wasn't assembled at Longbridge?

[Frisco]

The first one is the only cooper IMO. It doesn't matter what you do to it or how long its been done if it wasn't on it originally then all it can ever be is a replica.

That doesn't mean its the one Id buy but you cannot just put bits together and call it an original.

[Beej123]

The first one is the only cooper IMO. It doesn't matter what you do to it or how long its been done if it wasn't on it originally then all it can ever be is a replica.

That doesn't mean its the one Id buy but you cannot just put bits together and call it an original.

I totally agree, logbook is king and no matter how hard you try you will never change a City into a Cooper.

I think there are 2 views here though. One is as mine is which is, if it's a Cooper logbook then it's a Cooper and then the argument of which of the Coopers are 'true' Coopers (the 60s cars for me but that's just opinion)

[govig]

the Mk3 S had very little to visually distingush it from a standard Mk3 Mini 1000

Agreed. It's just the looks that are boring. I had a bronze yellow Mk3 1000 in the early 70s and *really* wanted the very similar looking S. Unfortunately it was just (actually miles) too far out of reach not only to buy but to insure. Whilst it looked very similar (speedo, badges and wheels were about the only things obvious to the uninitiated) they were a very different animal to the 1000 and far from boring but of course we all know that on here....

40 years on I'm now building a LHD Cooper S mark 3 replica. I know and you know it will never be a real S, it can't be and those cognoscenti will be able to spot the various minor differences immediately. It's definitely not intended to fool anyone and will have 'replica' stamped on the commission plate. It's obviously just not feasible to build an exact replica but it will be as good as if not better and faster than the car I so wanted when I was a spotty lad. The cost of the project will probably exceed the cost of buying a really good genuine Mk3 S (engine so far well exceeds £4000 and I'm building it!) which is a bit mad but at least I will know its history. The only real problem will be getting it registered and insured in France which isn't easy for specials. Luckily they have a test similar to the UK SVTA test so as long as it's done properly, there is a way.

Edited by govig, 01 March 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Cooperman]

I said this was a 'Can of Worms'.
My own feelings, having been involved with Minis since before the 997 Cooper was introduced is that so long as there is no intention to deceive it doesn't matter.
In the 60's a lot of the Mini Cooper and Cooper 'S' cars which were so successful in racing and rallying were built up from non-Cooper cars or even from scratch. I do believe the Britax Racing Coopers were all built from scratch, so if we use the premise that only a production-line originated Cooper or 'S' is genuine, the a championship was won by a 'fake' and that does not sound right.
You might, therefore, say that any Cooper which has been re-bodied over the years is also fake or replica. My 1964 rally 'S' has a different Mk.1 shell and its original shell was subsequently used to re-build a 1967 Cooper 998 which then became a 970 'S' rally car.
The strange thing is that in the 60's you could have built a Cooper 'S' in your own workshop using all new parts and it could have been registered as an Austin (or Morris) Cooper 'S' by the DVLA after an inspection and payment of tax.
Take the famous Mini 24PK (Google this). It started life as a 997, was fitted with a 1098, had a huge accident on the Manx Rally in 1964 and was rebuilt by the BMC Abingdon mechanics, but not at Abingdon. It had a new Mk.1 shell, new sub-frames and a 1275 'S' engine. Subsequently it was rallied by Sir Peter Moon and Brian Culcheth as a Cooper 'S' with works assistance. Is this a 'fake'?
I don't think there is a definitive answer here and 'to each his own' must apply.

[Furyblade_Lee]

I am a believer that any car, mini or not, will only ever be what it says on the logbook.
That is how it should be.

But I have recommissioned my 71 Austin into a visual MK3 S. I may enter it into sprints, hillclimbs or rallies as an S. BUT if I ever sold it I would in no way ever try to sell it as an S. Because it's not.

[Cooperman]

I'm shortly to start the complete rebuild and restoration of a 1966 Cooper. It started life as a 998, but was re-built as a 1275 'S' for rallying. A friend of mine has bought it from the widow of the guy who rallied it, and although complete, it's quite scruffy.
It will be rebuilt and prepared for Historic Rallying as a Cooper 'S' as in order to meet the homologation requirements of a '66 1275 it has to be called an 'S' or it simply will not comply. In all respects it will be a complete Cooper 'S' rally car. I will never claim it to be an original 'S', but I will refer to it as a Cooper 'S' rally car, because that it what it is. When advertised for sale it will be as a genuine 1966 Mini Cooper re-built as a full spec Historic Cooper 'S' Rally Car and complete with FIA/MSA papers - price on request(!).

One strange thing is that this sort of originality argument does not seem to occur in aviation. A Spitfire Mk.5 converted to a Mk.9 by the lengthening of the fuselage and the addition of a Merlin 66 engine, etc., will be called a Mk.9, not a replica Mk.9.

[mab01uk]

There are plenty of mint concours Mini 'Coopers' out there, especially early ones of which the only original part is the V5 Log book! Not even an 'expert' could tell or unravel their history very easily if ever, personally to me as an engineer a car is basically just a machine, the sum of its parts and is worth whatever you want to pay or think it is worth, whatever 'label' is attached.
Although of course any Logbook/V5 was not with the car when it left the factory, its purely a document and reg number later attached for identification by the UK authorities and means nothing much if shipped to say Japan or wherever. In fact many early Coopers have been exported in the past and there V5's have later been re-used in the UK for another replica so there are quite a few duplicate Mini's with in theory the same registration number history but in different countries!

In this months 'Cooperworld' magazine, Honorary MCR Member Stuart Turner ex-manager of the 1960's BMC Competitions Department has written an article which says, "I had a chart showing which Works Rally Mini Cooper was to be used where in the year but I often got the inevitable phone call, usually late at night from a driver to report that his car was bent or broken, meaning a re-jig of the chart. Which in turn led to the numberplate /ID /Austin /Morris badge swapping between BMC Works cars, which he says is why the phrase "this is the actual car in which X won Y" causes such merriment today........

Edited by mab01uk, 01 March 2012 - 11:17 PM.

[surfblue63]

Although of course any Logbook/V5 was not with the car when it left the factory, its purely a document and reg number later attached for identification by the UK authorities and means nothing much if shipped to say Japan or wherever. In fact many early Coopers have been exported in the past and there V5's have later been re-used in the UK for another replica so there are quite a few duplicate Mini's with in theory the same registration number history but in different countries!

But they all left the factory with an individual chassis number, which is not legally transferable, unlike a registration number.

And as for V5's being retained for exported cars and being reused, again another illegal circumstance. When a vehicle is exported the registration document should be returned informing the DVLA that the car has been exported.

Unfortunately BMC didn't stamp the chassis number onto the shell in a place that would not need replacement. If they had have done then it would not be so easy for individuals to mis-represent cars and create what no longer exists.

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